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Regional Cup - Updated

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Hello Sports Fans!

We have updated our Official Regional Cup Document to include some exciting changes to the way you build your nine-model roster. We’ve made a change that will allow you to make the most of your model collection at tournaments, as well as giving you more flexibility when choosing which models you’ll be putting on the table.

Players may now select both ‘Original’ and ‘Veteran’ versions of a model in their line-up. For example, the Brewer’s Guild may now include Veteran Spigot and Spigot in the same roster, giving them the options of going down a more football orientated route, or allowing them to include ‘Tooled Up’ to push their damage output up the max.

Both of these models cannot be included on the pitch at the same time, of course, but this change opens up player choice, and increases the options available in your nine model roster.

What do you think of these changes?

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I honestly do not like this at all.

The restriction on veteran models made list building come with very difficult choices in most circumstances and I don't really understand why removing the restriction was necessary. 

Only being allowed to bring one or the other forced players to weigh the pros and cons of each version of the character and figure out which one best met the needs of the roster over a wide range of circumstances. 

The worst part is I still can't use vet harmony's model as OG harmony :(

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Just now, Skuloth said:

I honestly do not like this at all.

The restriction on veteran models made list building come with very difficult choices in most circumstances and I don't really understand why removing the restriction was necessary. 

Only being allowed to bring one or the other forced players to weigh the pros and cons of each version of the character and figure out which one best met the needs of the roster over a wide range of circumstances. 

The worst part is I still can't use vet harmony's model as OG harmony :(

To be fair, you still have to make that decision every game, just not during list building any more.

Previously list building was pretty easy, since each team had only 11 models available + 1 Union. That means that (unless you're bringing both mascots) the only decisions you have to make are which Veteran, Union and Mascot you want and the one Guild player to drop. Not a lot of complicated thinking there for some teams - looking at you, Masons. Now you can take both Veterans, so you need to choose what two Guild models you're dropping which actually makes things significantly more complicated for some teams, like Fishermen who probably want both copies of Siren now.

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This gets my seal of approval! I think there are lots of good models that you might want to side board for some matches but were just forced out of tournanent line ups by having to compete with another version of themselves.

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11 minutes ago, Cleavelander said:

Apparently guild captains have a standard issue time machine.

Isn't that true even without this change? Vet rage using coin as a mascot. Fillet using brisket. Snakeskin being used at all. There is a lot of suspension of the lore or characters when it comes to building a list/roster.

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Mmmm...

Pros:

1) Some of the seemingly under-powered veterans, such as Spigot 2, may actually get game time.

Cons:

1) Feels as if it lacks flavor - The whole point of veterans was "a new spin on the same person". Now you could feasibly have doppelgangers sitting on the bench next to each other... then again, I suppose we play with dead/imprisoned characters and a goal scoring otter so maybe I need to suspend my disbelief.

2) List building becomes much less difficult and more min/max - This is certainly a boon to some teams over others. Fish for instance were going to have a very hard time deciding between Siren 1 for Shark and Siren 2 for Corsair. Having both honestly seems a little too strong. No need to choose Harmony 1 for Honour vs Harmony 2 for Hammer. Blackheart now has access to Rage 1. It does not seem like Brewers, Morticians, Engineers take advantage of this. Alchemists will probably figure out pretty soon which Katalyst is optimal anyway since they fill a similar role.

3) Stronger Hunter Memes.

 

Overall, I feel this is likely poor for Guild-Balance. There are some teams where you clearly wanted both versions and others where it doesn't matter quite so much. I suppose we'll see though.  

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36 minutes ago, Skuloth said:

I honestly do not like this at all.

The restriction on veteran models made list building come with very difficult choices in most circumstances and I don't really understand why removing the restriction was necessary. 

Only being allowed to bring one or the other forced players to weigh the pros and cons of each version of the character and figure out which one best met the needs of the roster over a wide range of circumstances. 

The worst part is I still can't use vet harmony's model as OG harmony :(

There are certain models for me, Such as Graves, where I want to take and use both, but one is just better overall.  I want tooled up in my list incase I run into brewers/masons etc.  If you force people to choose, they likely would only play Graves1.  Now with the change I can play both and when I am in a match that I don't need tooled up, I can play Graves2.

6 minutes ago, tehlon said:

2) List building becomes much less difficult and more min/max - This is certainly a boon to some teams over others. Fish for instance were going to have a very hard time deciding between Siren 1 for Shark and Siren 2 for Corsair. Having both honestly seems a little too strong. No need to choose Harmony 1 for Honour vs Harmony 2 for Hammer. Blackheart now has access to Rage 1. It does not seem like Brewers, Morticians, Engineers take advantage of this. Alchemists will probably figure out pretty soon which Katalyst is optimal anyway since they fill a similar role.

On the flip side, if a fish player has both sirens and both captains and their 5th drop is Corsair/Shark or a Siren, I am likely to know what the following model will be dropped.

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4 minutes ago, tehlon said:

Mmmm...

Pros:

1) Some of the seemingly under-powered veterans, such as Spigot 2, may actually get game time.

Cons:

1) Feels as if it lacks flavor - The whole point of veterans was "a new spin on the same person". Now you could feasibly have doppelgangers sitting on the bench next to each other... then again, I suppose we play with dead/imprisoned characters and a goal scoring otter so maybe I need to suspend my disbelief.

2) List building becomes much less difficult and more min/max - This is certainly a boon to some teams over others. Fish for instance were going to have a very hard time deciding between Siren 1 for Shark and Siren 2 for Corsair. Having both honestly seems a little too strong. No need to choose Harmony 1 for Honour vs Harmony 2 for Hammer. Blackheart now has access to Rage 1. It does not seem like Brewers, Morticians, Engineers take advantage of this. Alchemists will probably figure out pretty soon which Katalyst is optimal anyway since they fill a similar role.

 

Overall, I feel this is likely poor for overall Guild-Balance. There are some teams where you clearly wanted both versions and others where it doesn't matter quite so much. I suppose we'll see though.  

I think the issue was that it invalidated a lot of other models that are otherwise good. Fish and maybe Masons were the only ones with a real choice in my opinion. Every other team had one that was just better in their list, and so woukd more often than not see play. Now those other version still have to stand on their own merits, but the option is great. I'm particularly happy because I felt like regular Rage was basically deleted from the game, since having access to both captains is better than bringing a better player for blackheart, and regular rage is the model that got me into guild ball. 

I also feel like this was mainly a preemptive fix for the butchers double veteran problem they are gonna have in a couple months.

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3 minutes ago, Isante said:

On the flip side, if a fish player has both sirens and both captains and their 5th drop is Corsair/Shark or a Siren, I am likely to know what the following model will be dropped.

You'll known that after he see's your 9 and you determine who receives the kickoff. Easiest one to spot I imagine. Brewers + I'm receiving? That's Shark all day. Kicking off to morticians? Your game Corsair. 

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Part of the reason this came about has to be Veteran Ox. Having veteran Captains (or veterans who were captains in Ox's case) basically takes a lot of choice away from the guilds that are in that situation, or forces them to make a really difficult choice of shoehorning into one captain.

I think that allowing both veterans shifts the difficult choice to who you pick in the list selection phase, as you essentially have less permutations of your roster by including two versions of the same character.

Lastly, when it comes to tournament play fluff should have, and I'm making a rough estimate here, ZERO impact on your roster. Either that or you should never play certain characters with other characters, since that's not fluffy. Veteran Rage and Blackheart in a roster is equally fluff breaking to two versions of Siren.

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Extremely happy with this change, very welcome and opens up list-building and, I think, will make pre-match drafting way more interesting. This will likely trend most teams further to running double-captain, which is another thing I think is great!

EDIT: And, yeah, I can't seem to quote what @Frostmane said, but fluff really should not be a factor in tournament play. I'm sure there are games that do that mix better, but Guild Ball is not one of them, and I think that has been clearly stated as intentional by the creators since the get-go. All tournament rules should be about making the most fair, competitive, and fun tournament environment—end of list. 

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Just now, tehlon said:

You'll known that after he see's your 9 and you determine who receives the kickoff. Easiest one to spot I imagine. Brewers + I'm receiving? That's Shark all day. Kicking off to morticians? Your game Corsair. 

That assumes logic is in play.. I'd be more than happy to drop Shark into Morts or Corsair into Brewers!

 

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I am surprised at this change. Makes the VKat vs OKat issue I've been having a non-entity. I guess I like it? It allows more freedom in list selection - I hated that taking vetRage meant no Tooled Up in Union - especially when Rage is mostly likely to be seen with Union. 

2 minutes ago, Isante said:

That assumes logic is in play.. I'd be more than happy to drop Shark into Morts or Corsair into Brewers!

 

I thought the Fish logic was simpler than that - 'I'm receiving? Shark and I win in 2 turns, I'm kicking? Corsair and I win in 4 turns!'. :)

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1 minute ago, EpicChris said:

I am surprised at this change. Makes the VKat vs OKat issue I've been having a non-entity. I guess I like it? It allows more freedom in list selection - I hated that taking vetRage meant no Tooled Up in Union - especially when Rage is mostly likely to be seen with Union. 

I thought the Fish logic was simpler than that - 'I'm receiving? Shark and I win in 2 turns, I'm kicking? Corsair and I win in 4 turns!'. :)


I should clarify that I try to bash with teams I am not supposed to bash with.  One day my 6 takeout fish dream will come true!

 

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27 minutes ago, Besteven said:

Isn't that true even without this change? Vet rage using coin as a mascot.

Vet Rage had Coin as a mascot for like.... a quarter of a game... once?  Do you think the other team got 4 VP for those two takeouts?

Fantastic change overall.  Really opens up some options and helps alleviate the problems with Rosters being non-choices for most teams.  Also really helps keep veteran players from invalidating or being invalidated by their other version.

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Personally I don't understand how this is balanced. For many Guilds it seems to be a non-factor. Masons probably need this change to remain competitive, but it certainly seems to boost Fish & Union up a notch, the teams who can already take advantage of having the most divergent captains. But if Steam forged feels this is a balanced change, then it is probably a balanced change.

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6 minutes ago, tehlon said:

Personally I don't understand how this is balanced. For many Guilds it seems to be a non-factor. Masons probably need this change to remain competitive, but it certainly seems to boost Fish & Union up a notch, the teams who can already take advantage of having the most divergent captains. But if Steam forged feels this is a balanced change, then it is probably a balanced change.

I don't think Steamforged cares as much about a balanced change so much as they care about roster diversity. If this change means there are more guilds using more of their players, they probably count it as a net positive. I know I do.

 

Besides, it's not like Masons,Brewers and Hunters are going to remain untouched forever! (Same thing for Fish,Unions and Alchs!)

 

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