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Narak

Now offering S3 changes consoling!

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I've heard a lot of salt all over the world today and I just wanted to let everyone know that I am here to help console you on your grief/help you to understand the changes and ways you can play with your players. 

 

It's O.K. everyone, the sky is falling, but at least we get to live in the new world after the apocalypse! 

 

Just post something here and if I cannot answer I'll bring in a specialist! Make sure to look through the post to see if your question has been discussed! 

 

With Best,

Alex 

p.s I am completely open to being told that I am wrong, but I expect a conversation with stats/a well thought out argument.

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Personally I'd just like to see SFG address some of the most controversial S3 player changes (or lack of changes). There are some players that a lot of people are very unhappy with and I'd prefer to see SFG take a strance that they're going to keep an eye on them or even explain the rationale behind them. Even if nothing changes until S4 it would be nice to see SFG acknowledge these sentiments rather than act like everything about S3 is perfect.

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I think YOU are unhappy with Chisel (for some reason) - Steamforged are fine with them. Perhaps you might want to look again at what those players can do or take them for a field test with the new rules.

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3 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

Personally I'd just like to see SFG address some of the most controversial S3 player changes (or lack of changes). There are some players that a lot of people are very unhappy with and I'd prefer to see SFG take a strance that they're going to keep an eye on them or even explain the rationale behind them. Even if nothing changes until S4 it would be nice to see SFG acknowledge these sentiments rather than act like everything about S3 is perfect.

Jamie Perkins said that they would be paying close attention to the community for the changes to S3. I expect that you will hear from them frequently to help people digest the changes due to their reasoning.

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2 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

Personally I'd just like to see SFG address some of the most controversial S3 player changes (or lack of changes). There are some players that a lot of people are very unhappy with and I'd prefer to see SFG take a strance that they're going to keep an eye on them or even explain the rationale behind them. Even if nothing changes until S4 it would be nice to see SFG acknowledge these sentiments rather than act like everything about S3 is perfect.

Guild Ball Tonight has a 5 hour series on why they made changes to models.

 

You can go ahead and listen to them but you probably won't be happy as to what your hear. 

Also no one is saying that S3 is perfect...not even Steamforged.

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Just now, Trygle said:

Guild Ball Tonight has a 5 hour series on why they made changes to models.

 

You can go ahead and listen to them but you probably won't be happy as to what your hear. 

Also no one is saying that S3 is perfect...not even Steamforged.

I haven't either, but the idea is that steamforged changed models purposefully. 

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15 minutes ago, speedfreek said:

Listen to GBT five hour run through with Jamie P. 

I did this and honestly it left me feeling saltier than before I had begun. Jamie's utterly dismissive "Hunters are perfect and the community just needs to learn to play" attitude was really, really grating.

I wasn't expecting much with regards to season 3 Hunters. I didn't expect a sweeping redesign, I know they're too new for that I'm no dummy. I expected a light hand on the scale. A little bit here and there on some of the less loved models. And Seenah did get that and then some, as did Minx (although she's not really a Hunter). But Theron got a sizable nerf -- and I do call it sizable, now that I've played a game with the s3 rules it's quite a bit more impactful than initially viewed -- which in turn brought Hearne down a notch, Hemlocke got a net nerf, and Egret, despite not having a change on her card, is a lot weaker overall due to global changes in the rules (e.g. the mascot changes; being a top tier mascot killer isn't worth even half of what it once was). I honestly feel like Hunters are worse off in season 3 than they were in season 2, and to me they were unequivocally the worst team in season 2 -- not to the point that the stats show, those stats do have some issues with them, but down there with Engineers at the very least.

Maybe the new season 3 Hunter models will salvage the guild. But as it is, it feels like kicking them while they're down, especially to hear the playtest leader and self-claimed designer of the Hunters say they're "near perfect" when the community consensus and the performance we've seen shows that they are far from it. I really don't want to say that his pride is getting in the way of his judgement but... that is kinda what it looks like right now.

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Yeah I'm not going to waste five hours of my time on a podcast where they likely don't even address some of the criticisms raised. They have a blog, they have forums, these are better outlets for these things than five hours of waffle. 

20 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I think YOU are unhappy with Chisel (for some reason) - Steamforged are fine with them. Perhaps you might want to look again at what those players can do or take them for a field test with the new rules.

So are many people. And I've gave you my reasons. Not my fault you chose to dismiss them and just say that she's fine without giving any real reason as to why.

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4 minutes ago, Khift said:

I did this and honestly it left me feeling saltier than before I had begun. Jamie's utterly dismissive "Hunters are perfect and the community just needs to learn to play" attitude was really, really grating.

I wasn't expecting much with regards to season 3 Hunters. I didn't expect a sweeping redesign, I know they're too new for that I'm no dummy. I expected a light hand on the scale. A little bit here and there on some of the less loved models. And Seenah did get that and then some, as did Minx (although she's not really a Hunter). But Theron got a sizable nerf -- and I do call it sizable, now that I've played a game with the s3 rules it's quite a bit more impactful than initially viewed -- which in turn brought Hearne down a notch, Hemlocke got a net nerf, and Egret, despite not having a change on her card, is a lot weaker overall due to global changes in the rules (e.g. the mascot changes; being a top tier mascot killer isn't worth even half of what it once was). I honestly feel like Hunters are worse off in season 3 than they were in season 2, and to me they were unequivocally the worst team in season 2 -- not to the point that the stats show, those stats do have some issues with them, but down there with Engineers at the very least.

Maybe the new season 3 Hunter models will salvage the guild. But as it is, it feels like kicking them while they're down, especially to hear the playtest leader and self-claimed designer of the Hunters say they're "near perfect" when the community consensus and the performance we've seen shows that they are far from it. I really don't want to say that his pride is getting in the way of his judgement but... that is kinda what it looks like right now.

I agree. Hunters are 100% in a weird place currently. I think part of the problem is that each and every decision you make with hunters has to be well thought out and mistakes can be particularly punishing. I do not believe that perfect =/= the best, but you also have to remember that Jamie is looking into the near future as well as having a lot of relevant experience with the hunters guild. 

Something you may want to look at is how you are using your players. You say that Egret was a Mascot killer? Whilst I agree, I feel that you end up wasting a bunch of influence for only 2 vp (season2) and a very little bit of momentum. Also, I think a lot of people play Theron as a ranged captain... Theron is NOT a ranged captain, he has ranged players, but he is more of a ranger in DnD, a bit of rogue/fighter/archer. I watched Jamie play Hunters and for a particularly small amount of time was Theron actually at Range. The idea is to use tactics/distance/debuffs to really get in on your opponent, Theron is superb in melee and if you allocate most of your influence to other players you can even use him as bait. 

 

Try it! Thanks for your well thought out argument! 

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28 minutes ago, speedfreek said:

Listen to GBT five hour run through with Jamie P. 

If you've got time stamps for the different topics yeah I'll have a listen. Don't really want to dig through 5 hours for the few changes I'm looking for insight on though.

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10 minutes ago, Rejusu said:

Yeah I'm not going to waste five hours of my time on a podcast where they likely don't even address some of the criticisms raised. They have a blog, they have forums, these are better outlets for these things than five hours of waffle. 

So are many people. And I've gave you my reasons. Not my fault you chose to dismiss them and just say that she's fine without giving any real reason as to why.

Cool, cool. You are entitled to your opinion. I don't share your views and that's ok. But she isn't changing. So perhaps learn what she can do now (hint - a 2" dodgtastic model with access to damage is great for scoring / finishing models/collecting the ball) and play her that way or play some of the other 8 or so models you can field in Masons. She has her place as an option - you can choose not to take it. 

Oh and BTW you don't need Tower to win (or more accurately Tooled Up). Try playing without it.

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I still find it baffling you're trying to play up Chisel as a goal scorer when she's one of the worst footballing models Masons have access to. Beaten only by Brick and the Mascots. Maybe tied with Mallet/Tower, though they definitely work better in a lot of situations. But she's certainly no great footballer by any stretch of the imagination. Except yours evidently.

And no I don't think you do need Tooled Up. Except on Chisel before Painful Rage is online, because she's reliant on that damage buff to make up for the inherent weakness in her playbook.

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1 hour ago, Khift said:

I did this and honestly it left me feeling saltier than before I had begun. Jamie's utterly dismissive "Hunters are perfect and the community just needs to learn to play" attitude was really, really grating.

Doesn't surprise me, they said the exact same thing about Engineers going into S2

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Engineers were good in S2. I mean seriously Pin Vice. Come on. Even Ballista was working for several top players. They only got changed because it was decided the range KD game was unfun for everyone else. I'm not saying they get everything perfect (I'm amazed at what they have done to poor Gutter) but the Engineers were mostly fine and people did eventually get that bounty and many top players were winning with Ballista. Engineers were hard to play for sure and they were unforgiving of mistakes (hmm...sounds familiar) but some players got there. And now they are different and equally amazing.

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Ah, I was wondering how long it'd take for the classic "You're unhappy and I'm not" relative moral high-horse post to show up! I'm confident this will only lead to rousing discussions and positive repartee!

Here are some highlights you can expect out of this thread:

-Very specific situations being argued as though it is the only gamestate possible

-"You're playing wrong"

-"In my experience"

And the ever classic:

-"Well that's just your opinion!"

Edited by Absoclass
I forgot quotes. I'm a monster.

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12 minutes ago, Absoclass said:

Ah, I was wondering how long it'd take for the classic "You're unhappy and I'm not" relative moral high-horse post to show up! I'm confident this will only lead to rousing discussions and positive repartee!

Here are some highlights you can expect out of this thread:

-Very specific situations being argued as though it is the only gamestate possible

-"You're playing wrong"

-"In my experience"

And the ever classic:

-"Well that's just your opinion!"

Oh man this basically sums up nearly all the responses from people who can't believe that anyone could be unhappy with the changes.

10/10

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I think you are confused. You are unhappy - that is clear and I believe it. What I am saying is that I am not and others (hundreds/thousands) may fall on both sides of the argument. i.e. the small number of posters here won't matter a jot either way. And finally - nothing is going to change right now so I don't really see the point of the negativity blasts. If you don't like them then you have other options. There are things I don't like but you know what, I'm still playing - I like what I see in S3 and I have all the Guilds. But shouting into the internet about how terrible this or that model/Guild is or getting upset when people have differing opinions to you sadly won't achieve much. I hope you still want to play Guildball after these changes as I think it is a great game and only made better by S3, but that is always your choice.

And it's really early days for anyone to say this or that is broken/rubbish - we are all still playing TheoryBall - let's see some tournament data and play hundreds of games ourselves first.

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1 hour ago, EpicChris said:

Engineers were good in S2. I mean seriously Pin Vice. Come on. Even Ballista was working for several top players. They only got changed because it was decided the range KD game was unfun for everyone else. I'm not saying they get everything perfect (I'm amazed at what they have done to poor Gutter) but the Engineers were mostly fine and people did eventually get that bounty and many top players were winning with Ballista. Engineers were hard to play for sure and they were unforgiving of mistakes (hmm...sounds familiar) but some players got there. And now they are different and equally amazing.

As a 100% Ballista purist (I have Pin Vice, but have never played with her) who played Engineers throughout S2, was briefly top-ranked Engineer player, who beat the long-standing top-ranked Engineer player in a Ballista vs Pin Vice showdown at a Bristol tournament, and took top Engineer with Ballista at Vengeance, I call shenanigans. (I was one activation away from getting the bounty in two separate tournaments too, both of which I squandered due to tiredness, but that's harder to support with evidence).

 

Thankfully, Steamforged agree and have overhauled the team.  To say that the team that got the biggest ground-up  rebuild was "fine" is risible :)

 

I completely agree with their logic for chaning them, when it worked it was no fun for opponents (starting a turn with 6 models KD'd is no fun at all), and when it didn't it was no fun for the Engineer (missing a 3-dice Deadbolt on 2+ or 3+ to hit is almost funny the first time, the second time it's tear-inducing).

 

You'll also note that I said "going into Season 2", which was before Pin Vice was released...

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3 hours ago, Khift said:

I did this and honestly it left me feeling saltier than before I had begun. Jamie's utterly dismissive "Hunters are perfect and the community just needs to learn to play" attitude was really, really grating.

Same here. I waited patiently through around three and a half hours of that to see what Jamie had to say about the Hunters. I was looking for something like an official explanation of why the worst guild (people keep trying to argue that, but let's be real - they're the worst by any practical metric) didn't really get any better.

I was very disappointed to hear him basically pretend the whole issue doesn't exist and only talk about the guild for like eight minutes.

I wasn't expecting much with regards to season 3 Hunters. I didn't expect a sweeping redesign, I know they're too new for that I'm no dummy. I expected a light hand on the scale. A little bit here and there on some of the less loved models. And Seenah did get that and then some, as did Minx (although she's not really a Hunter). But Theron got a sizable nerf -- and I do call it sizable, now that I've played a game with the s3 rules it's quite a bit more impactful than initially viewed -- which in turn brought Hearne down a notch, Hemlocke got a net nerf, and Egret, despite not having a change on her card, is a lot weaker overall due to global changes in the rules (e.g. the mascot changes; being a top tier mascot killer isn't worth even half of what it once was). I honestly feel like Hunters are worse off in season 3 than they were in season 2, and to me they were unequivocally the worst team in season 2 -- not to the point that the stats show, those stats do have some issues with them, but down there with Engineers at the very least.

I played a couple of games with S3 hunters last night against Union and Butcher. Granted, my Union opponent was a pretty well-ranked competitive player, but the basic issues that Hunters have always had were still there. Seenah only used her roar once in both games because it was never relevant - she still gets crowded by two enemies and dies extremely quickly because she can't escape. Theron still stands around and does not much of anything because his range plays are a crapshoot and his melee strength is, while not terrible, nothing to write home about. Hunters have no reliable way to buff each other - applying snared can help, but it still relies on dice. All the other takeout teams have ways to buff each others' TAC and damage output directly, which is a lot less variable.

To be fair, all of that is my own impression from my own games - I'm sure others have had and will have other experiences, but I don't think that mine are uncommon.

Maybe the new season 3 Hunter models will salvage the guild. But as it is, it feels like kicking them while they're down, especially to hear the playtest leader and self-claimed designer of the Hunters say they're "near perfect" when the community consensus and the performance we've seen shows that they are far from it. I really don't want to say that his pride is getting in the way of his judgement but... that is kinda what it looks like right now.

Maybe the new models will fix the team. Sure. But relying on newer, better models to fix an entire faction is a bad way to design a game - it will result in no one playing the guild until the new models come out and the old models not seeing any play. SFG keep talking about how they want every model to see play and there to be a variety of options. Making new models that outclass the current ones is contrary to that goal.

It's possible that the new models will somehow create interactions with the existing Hunters that will be so good that it will make existing Hunters more usable. This feels like a pie-in-the-sky level of optimism, since that would require some very serious levels of finesse to pull off. Also, it would be worth mentioning that to customers instead of just saying that they're perfect as-is.

With the information available to us now, the logical conclusion is exactly what you're saying; Jamie's attachment to Hunters as "his team" are preventing him from seeing them objectively. He talks about the guild as if it's this absolute powerhouse "if you can just figure out how to use them." Well, maybe that's true, but apparently no one in the world has figured them out, because he seems to be the only one with that opinion. If the lead designer of a faction is the only person that can  figure out how to play the faction properly even months after release, that's pretty bad game design. I'm not saying the factions all need to be idiot-proof, but they shouldn't be so difficult that only the guy who made them knows how they work.

 

I would challenge Jamie to put his money where his mouth is. If he thinks the Hunters are so good if used properly, then prove it. Show up to a big tournament and crush everyone's faces with them. Do an interview and actually explain how to use them properly (in every interview I've listened to, he speaks about how good the Hunters are as if it's this big insider secret that he doesn't want to let out - I can almost hear the smirk on his face when he talks about people using Hearne wrong). The whole gaming community thinks Hunters are bad - show us why they aren't.

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1 hour ago, RedSam said:

I would challenge Jamie to put his money where his mouth is. If he thinks the Hunters are so good if used properly, then prove it. Show up to a big tournament and crush everyone's faces with them. Do an interview and actually explain how to use them properly (in every interview I've listened to, he speaks about how good the Hunters are as if it's this big insider secret that he doesn't want to let out - I can almost hear the smirk on his face when he talks about people using Hearne wrong). The whole gaming community thinks Hunters are bad - show us why they aren't.

While I think there's several reasons why Jamie specifically will never do this, I would like to see a top player smash a tournament with Hunters, and haven't yet. Most people seem pretty down on Hunters (including me), a few people are not—would be great to see those few people make some runs with Hunters if that is, in fact, feasible. 

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