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Hello Guild Ball fans! Season 3 speculation is ramping up, the Butcher Civil War is fully underway, and we’re here to keep that excitement flowing with another Butchers spoiler!

This time, we’re going to give you #TeamBrisket fans a look at one of your staunchest supporters, Boar!

Boar Front.jpgBoar Back .jpg

Obviously, Boar has had some changes going into Season 3; we’ll talk about his general survivability first. You’ll notice that, like many of you have asked for, he’s gone up to DEF [3+]. One of the problems Boar had in Season 2 was the issue of providing easy momentum for your opponent, and this change helps prevent that being as much of an issue.

This goes along with him trading Regenerate for Life Drinker. We just felt that this change not only lets him heal more, but it’s far more thematic for the Beast!

The final part of this change is that Boar has had his HP reduced by a couple of points. The point of these changes wasn’t necessarily to make him much harder to kill. He’s a Butcher, after all. The Butchers have always been the most overtly ‘killy’ of our teams, and their weakness has always been that they can’t take as much of a beating in return. We weren’t trying to make Boar more of a tank, since he’s not supposed to be one, BUT he did need to get that [+1] DEF to help him in the game. Reducing his HP by a couple of points was the way we felt we could bring all this together.

He has also lost Hamstring. This change ended up coming about because we wanted to make Concussion something Boar was likely to be able to use, so we moved the double GB symbol down his Playbook so he could trigger it more easily. However, at that point, Hamstring started feeling redundant. It was rare anyone ever triggered it, when KD is on the same column, and Concussion is one higher. In the end, he didn’t feel like he was gaining anything from having it, so we simply removed it.

The second really significant change to Boar is that his Playbook has been shortened by a column.

One thing which we didn’t fully realise in S1 when we were originally writing the game, was that TAC = Playbook length presented some problems. It meant models with low TAC values were very likely to wrap, if you could apply a Charge, or some other TAC bonuses. It also meant that some models (such as our lad Boar here) almost felt like they were being punished for having a high TAC, as they were much less likely to wrap.

With this in mind, we’ve had a look at every model’s Playbook, particularly those with high TAC, and adjusted them accordingly. Not all models with high TAC (including models with Crazy) have had a change to their Playbook, but many have. You’ll remember Cosset has a shorter Playbook now, just like Boar. This is one of those things that happens when you have such a deep, interactive game as Guild Ball; over time, you end with in some situations that the original designers couldn’t possibly have predicted. We can, however, adapt to these situations and make the game even better as a result! 

So, there you have it! Boar, as brutal, bloody, and terrifying as ever! Will he help #TeamBrisket wrest control of the Butcher’s Guild away from #TeamFillet? Or will his particular brand of deranged savagery be cut off by the cold steel of the Flashing Blade?

If you've somehow managed to miss the Butcher Civil War so far, (and how? we ask, nonplussed) then all the information can be found here!: http://bit.ly/2ed3Rox

Since we know you forumites are among our most loyal fans, we’re going to be spoiling more models on the forums between now and Steamcon, so keep an eye out! I will be checking this thread for the next half hour or so, so if anyone has any questions about Boar’s S3 rules, feel free to ask!

Cheers, good Butchering all!

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1 minute ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

The Butcher players need to teach us their secrets because apparently Boar needed def help but Stave didn't.

Boar is expected to be within 2" of his enemies to get anything done. Being DEF2+ punished him for doing his job (attacking people) which isn't what should happen.

Stave tags enemies from 7.5" away and pushes them to further than that if necessary. Being DEF2+ punishes him for positioning badly (since he shouldn't be in melee) which is to be expected.

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1 minute ago, Calum Todd said:

The DEF difference between the two had me a bit miffed too, but I guess Stave can Lob Barrels which is pretty darn good ability and he has Tough Hide which helps a bit...sort of.

By the time Stave is cornered and dieing, Tough Hide is working against me lol.  I need him to die, instead of just continuing to live, feeding them momentum.  It's not that he's not really survivable, he's just indefensible.

Boar, on the other hand, seems interesting.  I'm not sure what I think of him.  But I'm not a Butchers player either.  I know how easily my Rage can be controlled though, so I'm curious to see how it plays out on Boar when he's only got a 1'' push on column 2.  Seenah, at least, has a pretty aggressive push early on.  Idk.  Not a Butchers player.  He doesn't particularly worry me though.

I am, however, excited to see them note the Playbook lengths vs. TAC.  That was something I noticed in all of the statistical analysis work I did a few months ago.  Brewers actually became the team with the highest TAC because their playbook length was so short, they got the most out of it.  Guilds with actual high TAC had matching playbook lengths, and the juicy options weren't on the early side.  Somewhat defeated the purpose.

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2 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Boar is expected to be within 2" of his enemies to get anything done. Being DEF2+ punished him for doing his job (attacking people) which isn't what should happen.

Stave tags enemies from 7.5" away and pushes them to further than that if necessary. Being DEF2+ punishes him for positioning badly (since he shouldn't be in melee) which is to be expected.

Stave has some great games, and there's been times I've absolutely dominated with him.  But he's very very very much in the "git gud" camp.  He's kind of got the Hunter problem where it takes a lot of skill and experience to do anything with him, and even then there's matchups that really screw him over.  I find that any player anywhere from new to moderate in skill level really struggles with Stave because most of the time, he loses them the game.  You're right, he's big into positioning, but it's a steep, slippery slope that you can't afford to make any error with, and therefore, generally not worth the gamble.  He can't be relied on for anything higher than DEF3 because now you're really gambling for that DEF4 hit. He can't counter attack whatsoever because even if the KD is on the last column, against DEF2 they're probably going to hit it.  He can't go into anything with long threat ranges because models like Shark and Shank and Jaecar will come flying in from outside of his barrel range and build enough momentum to go first.

He's great in specific matchups.  He'll lose you the game in the others unless you're good enough to play whatever you want, in which case, you could play a match of just Harry the Hat v1 and do just fine.  

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32 minutes ago, TheLieutenant said:

 

With this in mind, we’ve had a look at every model’s Playbook, particularly those with high TAC, and adjusted them accordingly. Not all models with high TAC (including models with Crazy) have had a change to their Playbook....

...so Chisel may not get a shorter playbook :-(

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Stave is good but he is also a horrendous liability. I've won many games by just Scything Blowing Stave, or even just taking momentum as I whittle him down. Stave can guarantee your opponent goes first. That's bad. However with the momentum changes - he might be able to do something about it. Maybe.

 

About Boar - I am still really confused by Concussion. I just don't consider trading 1 INF for I INF a good deal - it doesn't get me closer to my goal of winning. Boar can trade 1 INF for 2 INF if he's lucky but I'd probably rather take the 9 DMG and 4 MOM. Both get me much closer to victory.

I've always thought Concussion should do damage - i.e. if it did 2 DMG and -1INF I would go for it (even 1 DMG maybe) but not momentous = terribad. Hamstring would have been MUCH better. This is a loss imho.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

The Butcher players need to teach us their secrets because apparently Boar needed def help but Stave didn't.

I am just not going to get drawn into an argument about what Stave needs. Tough hide going would be a start. 

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19 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Stave is good but he is also a horrendous liability. I've won many games by just Scything Blowing Stave, or even just taking momentum as I whittle him down. Stave can guarantee your opponent goes first. That's bad. However with the momentum changes - he might be able to do something about it. Maybe.

 

About Boar - I am still really confused by Concussion. I just don't consider trading 1 INF for I INF a good deal - it doesn't get me closer to my goal of winning. Boar can trade 1 INF for 2 INF if he's lucky but I'd probably rather take the 9 DMG and 4 MOM. Both get me much closer to victory.

I've always thought Concussion should do damage - i.e. if it did 2 DMG and -1INF I would go for it (even 1 DMG maybe) but not momentous = terribad. Hamstring would have been MUCH better. This is a loss imho.

 

 

Concussion is definitely situational, but as a Fish player it can absolutely screw your ability to score with certain players (pretty much anyone but Shark) as you tend to allocate exactly what a player needs to be able to score. Not to mention how good it is against models like Boar/Rage or models that have 1 inf on them for tooled up. In short, I really like Concussion and think it is underutilized. 

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I think Hamstring would be better against Fish though? And yeah Boar and Rage (and Seenah?) don't like it. But that's pretty niche! 2/3 models. I'm saying as a CP it's pretty crap - most times you will never use it. A clutch play like that needed looking at.

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Still disagree with you. I think being situational doesn't mean it's crap. The power of stopping someone from scoring a goal or removing their options is great. And I've seen it used quite a few times (unlike say: Misdirection). Think it would be way too strong if it did damage as well, would become a no-brainer a lot of the time. 

Hamstring is good against certain fish players, but never had Boar get it off on me as he either tended to be ineffective near the back or killing models in one go..

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Concussion is fine. The only problem it has is that a lot of models with Concussion don't have it easily accessible in their playbooks.

Removing INF is pretty underrated. Naturally on Boar you only want to take it on attacks that are free from Berserk (unless you got seven hits) but that's fine. You don't get momentum from Concussion, but remember that the opponent also doesn't get to use that influence to generate Momentum, and also doesn't get any damage or other benefit from it.

You just need to look at how much everyone hates Graves1 to see how much difference a single point of influence makes. And having 1 less to allocate means you lose out on the least necessary INF point on the team - Since you get to choose who you hit and apply concussion to, the point of influence you're removing is probably more valuable than just reducing the options to be allocated by 1.

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Like the change but worried about the after effects.

think this will (and has partially started already above) to brewers complaining about stave being def2, which could lead to no def2 modes if it continues through the guilds.

if that happens the designers are really hamstringing themselves - they have already removed def6, that would leave only def 3,4,5 to differentiate players.

im already starting to think a d8 system would be better

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Don't forget that Stave also gets a stealthy buff in that Scum is less necessary in Tapper lists now, which means Quaff can be around to give him Second Wind more frequently. If he's truly so hard to play that keeping him out of people's threat ranges is so difficult, maybe 4" extra distance (6 with Spigot) will help him out.

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There's some really interesting changes here. I can't wait to try him out and see what a difference they make.

Concussion on 4 hits from 8 dice is a very interesting change. It's something I have never used with him before... mainly because I've never rolled that high with him, but also because he's usually attacking someone who's already gone. It'll be interesting to see if gets some use now, against some models it can be amazing.

Life drinker is a very interesting addition, with the DEF 3+ it means shoving him into a brawl isn't just going to necessarily mean he ends up dead very quickly. And with Swift stride and Tough Skin on him he starts to look really dangerous.

The big change for me is the >> on 5 hits, which gives him a decent chance of pushing those annoying def 3/1 2" melee players (namely, Hooper, Tapper and Ghast) out of the way, especially if Meathook or Brisket has set them up with a -1 DEF. 

The mom 4 DMG on 6 hits is also really good. I don't know how many times I've rolled 6 hits with him only to end up taking the 3 mom dmg from lower down the playbook.

Anyone spot the potential gutter nerf? Lifedrinker only on playbook damage, so no using it on scything blow. Not a massive nerf, but will make a difference to how I use her (I tend to just leave her with a couple of INF for chain grabbing, until I can see a decent scything blow opportunity and then I'll stack her up and let her have fun) as she'll find herself in an awkward position if she's gone into the middle of the scrum to dish out 4x scything blow and not be able to recover HP. That said, if she still has 2" melee, AP and momentous damage results, I'll probably still take her.

Overall a good set of changes, for both players.

Cheerio,

Ben

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1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Don't forget that Stave also gets a stealthy buff in that Scum is less necessary in Tapper lists now, which means Quaff can be around to give him Second Wind more frequently. If he's truly so hard to play that keeping him out of people's threat ranges is so difficult, maybe 4" extra distance (6 with Spigot) will help him out.

Ahh yes the old, "if you dump a lot of resources into this model it becomes good" argument. Dumping about 1/4 of your influence into a model, one way or another, shouldn't make it good or neat. It should make it do a lot. 

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5 hours ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

The Butcher players need to teach us their secrets because apparently Boar needed def help but Stave didn't.

I had the same immediate thought. How on earth has Stave not gotten any changes! He was already hard to play and a pure momentum farm. Second Wind from Quaff helps, but that is another investment of 2 influence on top of the 2 to barrel lob (or three if you ran). What is the real risk/reward for Boar now? He has a better healing mechanism (+4 per turn, +another 4 from guaranteed momentous damage ), defense boost, and can output more damage as he is more likely to wrap on his charge.

Concussion being on 4 success also doesn't seem right to me. Those of you saying it isn't powerful are just off the mark. The ability to strip two influence (or more) from a model in one activation is much too strong. Being able to remove influence greatly reduces the impact of any player with buffs. Counting on tooled up to do a lot on that captain with 5? Well now they have 3. It is much worse than losing it from your pool, as the Butcher player can now choose where to remove the influence from. 

Against a defense 3 one armor he gets that 7 successes on average on the charge. That is 4 damage and removing one influence. On average his next attacks will net five successes, so probably taking the momentous 3 twice and then on the last attack he can take double guild ball again. That is a turn where he is doing 10 damage, removing two influence, healing three points, and generating two momentum for the low low cost of 1 influence. That isn't even with any ganging up bonuses, crazy dice spiking or any aura buffs. Just the sheer ease that he can spot remove two influence from someone seems wrong and very "unbutchery." With minimal ganging up bonuses he could easily strip 4 influence if he gets into someone who is knocked down or has innately low defense. Against low defense teams like the Brewers he will be a monster.

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