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relaxeddave

Ch-ch-ch Changes !!

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So I was curious of other peoples opinions on something I have been 'chewing' over recently and that is the coming changes.

Now the changes themselves seem quite good, I've agreed with most if not all and thank Steamforged for their constant support of their awesome game.

However, and this isn't a table flip moment, the constant changes are beginning to annoy me. It seems that every six months we have a couple of months where we are waiting for the next raft of changes (or season) to hit or are still waiting for models to be released and are left with models that are .... not unplayable by any means, but when I know they are going to change soon I feel I'm 'wasting' my time playing them in their current format. I am a father of two young boys so my gaming time is limited if that helps put things in perspective.

As a Brewers player primarily I currently have Tapper (change), Stoker (change), Scum (change), Vet Spigot (unreleased) and finally Quaff (only just released) for a total of 5 models out of my roster in some sort of flux, sure I can use proxies and this and that and it isn't like they are broken right now but just highlighting my point.

I do however appreciate that the game is still new and Steamforged are probably still finding their feet and getting things balanced but if this were to continue it would be a real negative for the game in the longer term.

Are the new seasons to close to one another ? should they take a little more time to nail it first time ? Obviously they need to advance to make ££ to continue making this awesome game.

Anyway, that is my musings. Again thank you Steamforged for your efforts but I am a little 'nervous' of the future.

Dave

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So far I think they've done great. I agree that as the game matures hopefully changes aren't required toooo often. 

That said I'm eagerly awaiting the new rules. I got Harry the hat on release and have probably only played him 3 or 4 times...

I feel there are quite a few models/ teams that need a bit of love and some rebalancing of certain things that have over the last year or so become problematic for the continued development/balance of the game.

True replication is a good example. The balance team must absolutely loathe that ability in it's current state lol.

The one place I think I really agree with you is the long release schedule and spoiling of rules that aren't out yet. Now this is a purely mental thing so not as important but I really don't want to know about new things until a month or less from their release. It's too hard on my sanity :P

This active approach is a million times better than the old GW style of ignoring things for years until the next re-release. Please keep it up guys :)

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I believe these changes will stay in effect for a while as they stated the current game was more like a beta and they wanted to play test among the masses.

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I concur that full scale changes are better than Codex Creep. It's a bit unsettling having them before the end of Season 2, but if it needed doing, then best to get it out of the way before moving on.

On balance, all seems good to me and looking forward to what might be done to Cogs.

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Remember, the bulk of the changes that we've seen so far have been on Season 1 models; meaning that the changes have been considered for at least 2 years, and have become less pressing as the game got more eyes on it and the designers learned about the way the general population played it.  If you've been watching the changes coming across the Brewers, in particular, you'll see that you're not wasting any time playing them as they are now, you'll just want to make a few small mental adjustments in the future.  I would be very surprised if any of the guilds (except maybe the Engineers) get massive sweeping changes to how they are played - even if the sum of the rules changes amounts to a lot of bullet points.

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I think it's a step toward the future.

Online gaming is constantly being tweaked with patches. Ultimately, the intention is for the good of the game.

True, tabletop formats are a little more cumbersome for too many on-the-fly changes, but the Internet age, and SteamForged's commitment to providing free updates, facilitates this.

It seems jarring right now, because SF may be the first company with a really notable game to be making these tweaks so frequently. But in the future, as long as they provide a clear message that this game will have frequent updates to keep the game as fun and balanced as possible, and always make sure it is very accessible, then overall this is a good thing. In the future, I imagine the vast majority of games of this nature will be the same if they intend on making it anything close to a "competitive game."

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I think the brewers changes thus far have been quite small. Nothing that really changes how the faction plays as a whole. Also with guilds being so small compared to other war game armies this won't shake up your lists too much. Even though model changes might change your lists you shouldn't be looking at a massive investment to do so seeing as the core of your team is mostly intact. I know you listed some models but I'd be interested in what changes you think are the most jarring? Stoker is probably the biggest change I would say so far for brewers.

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When the pics of Kick Off came out and people noticed the differences it was a bit disconcerting as it seems so soon after season 2 started. On reflection though I think it's down to perception.. officially season 2 started in April, but in reality we started getting season 2 models around this time last year, and at the same sort of time there was the major errata, so really it's been a year.

So far, I'm pretty pleased with the changes to the Brewers, even though though the only ones that effect my favourite 6 are  nerfs rather than buffs I'm still happy with them. I could possibly switch Gutter for Stoker now though :)

So yeah, at first I thought it was too soon but really I don't think it is, and I have faith that SF will do the right thing for the game.

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On the flipside of the coin: regular changes, when justified, are one of the reasons I play this game.

I'm probably in a similar boat as OP regarding time, family with young twins, full time work, projects on the side. I only really have time for one minis game and I chose this one, because it's more about making decisions on the table with a limited model count than it is about building/buying "the list". If you're going to build an imperfect balance game that way however, you need a way to keep the meta alive and shifting. The regular updates/errata cycles are one way to do that without breaking my wallet nor my time allocations.

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10 minutes ago, JS said:

 I only really have time for one minis game and I chose this one, because it's more about making decisions on the table with a limited model count than it is about building/buying "the list".

I agree with this completely. It feels to me like Steamforged isn't after every penny I have, or spare minute. I've played for a while with paper models, and am only recently diving in and picking up some teams at my own slow pace. I feel it's definitely worth regular updates to be able to keep playing with what I have, and not really have to worry about the new stuff I can't get yet making my current guys feel lacking.

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I guess I'm the same situation as many others, having other time consuming commitments and tabletop gaming has to be squeezed in between other things (e.g. life). I was also a bit wtf when the news about Season 3 reached me, especially having just bought plot cards for Season 2 ... I'm also just about to learn a new team, but that will be postponed now until season changes drop, I think.

 

Anyway, with the policy that SF has embraced – free rules, free cards, etc – I do not think that regular updates are that problematic. As long as models stay reasonably well balanced (something SF has managed very well so far) and the volatility stays low, I think most of us will be ok with regular tweaks and changes. We have six models on the pitch; the cost and job of exchanging one or two is manageable. In the other game I play (but will likely stop playing ...) I found recent changes almost completely invalidating my line-up, and I'm looking at a severe € investment (in the €150 magnitude) in order to play a reasonable list, as well as shelving lots of minis that I've paid for and put time and work into.

 

TL; DR: Guild ball is awesome and I put my trust in SF to handle things well.

 

@relaxeddave Love the name of the thread :)

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It does seem like a lot of changes, but even coming from a warmachine background, where the same models and tiers were problems, either unplayable or too good, were that way for years at a time.  MK2 had the same dumpster models for the entire edition, and going into MK3, failed to fix most of them.  Coming from that background, it's easy to write off models like Harry the Hat or Stoker because chances are, they won't be fixed for a long time, so why buy them?  Well, I own them, and I've owned them for a long time because SF has made it very clear that they want everything to be playable, and have been aggressive towards that effect, at least as far as tabletop companies go. I think what they're doing right now is pretty good work and I'm enjoying it.

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So when is Season 3 expected to drop? I thought a new season was scheduled for April each year - it would be nice to get a full year out of my rulebook and plot cards before they are rendered void!

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I believe Season 3 is being released at Steamycon (Nov) and the new seasons will no longer be tied to Salute (April) as they have been in the past, which is part of the reason the new season feels so soon (it is, compared to Season 2), but I suspect that Season 4 will drop at the following Steamycon, likely to be in Nov again.

I believe Season 3 is being released at Steamycon (Nov) and the new seasons will no longer be tied to Salute (April) as they have been in the past, which is part of the reason the new season feels so soon (it is, compared to Season 2), but I suspect that Season 4 will drop at the following Steamycon, likely to be in Nov again.

Hmmm, does that set of posts count as a hat trick?

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I believe Season 3 is being released at Steamycon (Nov) and the new seasons will no longer be tied to Salute (April) as they have been in the past, which is part of the reason the new season feels so soon (it is, compared to Season 2), but I suspect that Season 4 will drop at the following Steamycon, likely to be in Nov again.

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I believe Season 3 is being released at Steamycon (Nov) and the new seasons will no longer be tied to Salute (April) as they have been in the past, which is part of the reason the new season feels so soon (it is, compared to Season 2), but I suspect that Season 4 will drop at the following Steamycon, likely to be in Nov again.

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For release of S3, the understanding I had was that rules and updates, plus new tokens and Kick Off, are scheduled for Steamcon, and new models will start hitting in the new year.

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After hoping to build some terrain for next tournament I hope for obstacles and obstructions rules to be crisp clear in 3 edition - this is one area of the game that I think needs to be brushed very neatly

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27 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

After hoping to build some terrain for next tournament I hope for obstacles and obstructions rules to be crisp clear in 3 edition - this is one area of the game that I think needs to be brushed very neatly

What is the issue? I think the rules for terrain in Guild ball are actually some of the easiest in wargaming due to the abstraction involved

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

What is the issue? I think the rules for terrain in Guild ball are actually some of the easiest in wargaming due to the abstraction involved

Ok where to start:

 

Dimensions of terrain ? They are covered in Organized Play (this should go into main book).

 

We have ground and terrain: In OPD we are instructed to put 4 – 7 elements of terrain on a pitch (in one off game we can do it by 3+d4). There is NO mention of ground. So the book makes clear distinction between the two and OPD doesn’t – that’s 1 offense.

 

Then we are instructed that half (rounding up) of the terrain we put down should be obstructions. So let’s see what should they be – no larger than 2” by 2” square. I think there was a thread about it somewhere here – what does it mean in reality ? A square 2 by 2 ? In the new starter set 2 obstructions are … 1” by 2” so square area 2. You get my point … And to make things harder difficult ground that should not be mixed with terrain is supposed to be no larger than 6” in any dimension (not the same as 6” by 6” square).

 

Other thing that is not good in my eyes is the ability to stand on obstruction if the base fits (different people have different idea of what this means – it fits wholly or it just is able to sustain itself on top for few moments and as the dice rolls it drops) – I can see no benefit from that as it adds verticality to the game that is clearly mean to be horizontal only.

 

Last thing is the ground part – there should be black and white line about that ground has to be build so each and every part of it is accessible and models are supposed to be able to stand in any part of it (so rough ground with some rocks that stick out making positioning impossible is just wrong terrain making)

 

What I LOVE about guild ball is that it’s ALL about PLAYING the game rather than tackling list building, terrain quarrels and so on. I like that the designers are trying HARD to get the balance just right – this shows that company is not only focused on making money but they want to sell you quality game. Terrain for tournament and organized play oriented guys is always something that you want to get right. If design team makes perfect balanced rules and TO puts too much or too little or just bad terrain on the pitch it will mess with the results and that  not something I want see in game with such great potential J

 

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The rule book allows for different terrain than the organised play document - there isn't anything wrong with that, as every game doesn't have to be a tournament game. The organised play document is a lot more restrictive in terms of the terrain you can use, but it's pretty clear what's to use - there was some confusion as to the demensions, but it does say no more than that size in any demensionin there (so a circle of the diameter specified is the largest allowed).

I've never really heard of anyone having any issues with standing on obstacles, but it doesn't come up a lot in many of the tournament games I've played - most non 2d terrain isn't really suitable for this if it's the right size for tournaments. I've also never seen any ground that wouldn't allow people to place their models on it anywhere, but I agree that would be wrong - do you think the rules need to state this specifically when it's clear from them that you can indeed be anywhere in the ground?

99% of terrain arguments I've seen in other game systems come down to line of sight / cover issues, and these are much simplified here to the point that I haven't really had any issues with it... 

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Within the context of the game rules, 2D terrain works best, especially for a forest. It's kind of ironic, but a forest in GB shouldn't contain actual trees as they infringe on model placement and don't represent barriers or obstructions either ;) 

That said, I like 3D terrain and you just have to use a bit of imagination / common sense to make it work.

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