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Banjulhu

Season 3 and the Fisherman's Guild

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1 minute ago, Banjulhu said:

 

I assume yes it would but its one of those multiple bits of rules interacting moments which can produce odd results so possibly worth asking

I assume so as well. Should follow the same ruling as seduced if there is one regarding snapshots, I just found a lot of dodge rulings in my search.

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1 hour ago, Banjulhu said:

The only models that have Balls Gone! at the moment are Greyscales, Spigot, Spigot2 and Brisket2. Spigot2 is a 4/8" and Brisket2 is on a team where she is the one you likely want holding the ball over anybody else.

I mean it is a may ability so she can hold onto it if she wants.

I think this is a pretty powerful change.

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And One more Thing Just came to my mind.

Even if there are no teammates in Range, now we can still Kick it in one direction or another to deny the Ball or maybe even scatter further towards a teammate. Where as before in such cases we had to Stick to the Ball and maybe get counterstriked it off again.

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If there's no teammate in your kick distance, you'll have to hold onto the ball. Kicking to a target spot isn't a pass and therefore can't be done free from Ball's Gone.

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Didn't seen this explicitly mentioned so far, but the change to Ball's Gone! is basically a significant range increase of the Play + the ability to gain momentum from it, in exchange for a little risk (since you're rolling dice for the pass). Going from 4" to 6/7/8" depending on the model is a huge deal to the viability of the Play IMO - in my experience the short range was the #1 reason the ability was just a tackle that got around Close Control. 

Great change.

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What is the point of Tactical Advice on her anymore?

Her two character plays, a sprint and a shot all in one activation only cost 4 Inf.

There is hardly ever a reason to give her 5 Inf

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Mat only said they're tidying up those rules but didn't mention with what, I'm hoping for natural def 5.

And if she becomes the second regular player in the game to generate 3 inf I'd be very interested in running her. So far tactical advice changing resulted in both Tapper and Stoker generating an additional INF, so this may not be as much of a pipe dream as it seems? Only other tactical advice model I can think of is mercury and I don't think his inf has been mentioned.

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I can't imagine Angel will be natural DEF 5+ and 3/4 INF, with Super Shot and Nimble. That'd be ridiculous. Like Velocity on crack - in Fish. 

 

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Giving she was used as an example of not making a change for changes sake it sounds like she is going to be unchanged except for the nerf due to the change in how Tactical Advice works.

The only thing that sounds at least a little hopeful is that she was spoken about as being Def 5+ rather than someone that can become Def 5+ but that could easily be a slip of the toungue.

 

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My bet is regardless of whether she keeps tactical advice or not, she will be a 2/4 player. Would be shocked if she went to 3/4. I do think losing the +1 df near Salt and becoming Df5 base could happen, and would balance out the loss of the (situational) influence. Not sure it's really a big enough change to change when I put her in the team or not.. but Could be underestimating df5... Would at least be better than nothing. 

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I don't expect them, but I could realistically imagine either one happening, with both being unlikely because I'm not very optimistic. If she doesn't get something to make up for the lost INF she would be an outlier though. Natural 5 if she's keeping nimble is the actual scary part imo.

I don't even think she'd be that great with a 3/4 without 5 and nimble. She'd still get shut down by anyone with a mediocre defense engaging her with an accessible KD or T, she would still get taken out by a stiff wind. definitely fits with the idea of highlighting weaknesses and strengths.

Between tactical advice inf, defensive support def, and nimble I think there's a "pick two" issue. Which is similar to how she currently runs, except you usually can only pick one in any significant way.

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I think if Angel has went into Season 3 unchanged beyond universal changes to Character Traits then it is hard to imagine any Fish specific changes outside of reducing Shark's negative play aspect.

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I could see a minor change on Kraken and a change to unpredictable movement of some kind. But I do think we were always going to be one of the least modified times (as we seemingly had the closest internal balance). Do think Shark's Legendary will change in some way (either range reduction or actual effect change) but doubt much else will change on him. 

I am really interested to see what happens to our Union players though, as I have had both Gutter and Fangtooth in my tournament 8 (though have since dropped Fangtooth). Snakeskin being the obvious dud of our choices, I am really intrigued to see if she becomes worth picking up in season 3. 

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On 11/2/2016 at 1:40 PM, Banjulhu said:

she is one of the the weakest models in the team

Well... that's highly inaccurate...

On 11/2/2016 at 2:38 PM, Ik-tornado said:

And if she becomes the second regular player in the game to generate 3 inf I'd be very interested in running her. So far tactical advice changing resulted in both Tapper and Stoker generating an additional INF, so this may not be as much of a pipe dream as it seems? Only other tactical advice model I can think of is mercury and I don't think his inf has been mentioned.

I am cautiously optimistic this will be the case, otherwise angel becomes a dead model for shark. She MAYBE still works with corsair for half court shots. But if she goes to the very odd inf 2/5 there is next to zero reason to bring her over veteran siren.

Veteran Siren's natural goal threat is 17" for 2inf. Angel's threat is 18" for 3inf. Siren's loss of 1" is *more* than made up for by the fact she has a momentous dodge on 1 and momentous push dodge on 2. Any seasoned Angel player (or Flint/Mist for that matter) knows she has trouble generating her own momentum. So we have roughly equal goal threat for the same amount of Inf. Survive-ability wise: Escaping Fate is pretty much immunity against anyone without dirty knives, kick bolt, snap fire etc. Yeah Angel is 5+ with salt with two extra boxes so maybe she is very so slightly more survivable against some teams, but my gut says Escaping fate is better most of the time. There are just so many inf hungry melee characters in the game relative to ranged attacks. If you happen to run Kraken (I won't be) It's the same effect as salt. Ditching salt frees up Tentacles blind which can be very valuable. When was the last time you even used nimble? I'd say Fangtooth could be the difference, but honestly shadow-like is practically the same as light-footed where he is involved. 

So what does that leave us with? Influence battery, which is my personally preferred use for Angel. If she no longer has this benefit, it is going to be very difficult to justify her team slot. 

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8 hours ago, tehlon said:

Well... that's highly inaccurate...

I am cautiously optimistic this will be the case, otherwise angel becomes a dead model for shark. She MAYBE still works with corsair for half court shots. But if she goes to the very odd inf 2/5 there is next to zero reason to bring her over veteran siren.

Veteran Siren's natural goal threat is 17" for 2inf. Angel's threat is 18" for 3inf. Siren's loss of 1" is *more* than made up for by the fact she has a momentous dodge on 1 and momentous push dodge on 2. Any seasoned Angel player (or Flint/Mist for that matter) knows she has trouble generating her own momentum. So we have roughly equal goal threat for the same amount of Inf. Survive-ability wise: Escaping Fate is pretty much immunity against anyone without dirty knives, kick bolt, snap fire etc. Yeah Angel is 5+ with salt with two extra boxes so maybe she is very so slightly more survivable against some teams, but my gut says Escaping fate is better most of the time. There are just so many inf hungry melee characters in the game relative to ranged attacks. If you happen to run Kraken (I won't be) It's the same effect as salt. Ditching salt frees up Tentacles blind which can be very valuable. When was the last time you even used nimble? I'd say Fangtooth could be the difference, but honestly shadow-like is practically the same as light-footed where he is involved. 

So what does that leave us with? Influence battery, which is my personally preferred use for Angel. If she no longer has this benefit, it is going to be very difficult to justify her team slot. 

The principle difference in goal threat between Angel and Vet Siren isn't the 1" - it's the 2 extra dice. Angel is much less versatile, but the thing she does well (goal Cannon) is hard to match. I don't think she'd need much to get back on the table more for me - I only ever really got the Tactical Advice on turn 1 anyway as I play Shark very aggressively, so it's barely a concern for me...

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I want Angel to get something that lets her ignore some penalties from intervening models or LOS when shooting on goal. If she's mean to be the best model at scoring through defenses, she should actually be good at it - at the moment her extra dice don't match up well to mobile players who can get more dice by avoiding intervening targets.

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37 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

I want Angel to get something that lets her ignore some penalties from intervening models or LOS when shooting on goal. If she's mean to be the best model at scoring through defenses, she should actually be good at it - at the moment her extra dice don't match up well to mobile players who can get more dice by avoiding intervening targets.

I like Angel more than most it seems (she in my 8) but do agree she can struggle getting the best shots at times. I do think she may be TOO good at scoring with this kind of rule. 

Honestly if she just loses df support salt and becomes df 5 and a 2/4 inf I'll be happy enough. Won't really change her spot in my lineup but makes her a little tougher to kill at the cost of 1 inf t1 (the only turn I ever got it). Not gonna be one of the top choices but still will be in my Shark 8.

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1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

I want Angel to get something that lets her ignore some penalties from intervening models or LOS when shooting on goal. If she's mean to be the best model at scoring through defenses, she should actually be good at it - at the moment her extra dice don't match up well to mobile players who can get more dice by avoiding intervening targets.

I find she is good at that - crowded out by 2 players she's better at scoring than a lot of Strikers who are free (3/10" vs 3/8"). This is the one thing she is pretty good at. With Corsair Legendary, she's down right silly...

But her mobility and attacking / momentum generation are really pretty poor. She's also kind of squishy, with the chance to mitigate it. I currently find her a little too focused on a huge kick with not enough else going in - a small buff would get me playing her a lot more, I'm sure.

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2 hours ago, FearLord said:

The principle difference in goal threat between Angel and Vet Siren isn't the 1" - it's the 2 extra dice. Angel is much less versatile, but the thing she does well (goal Cannon) is hard to match. I don't think she'd need much to get back on the table more for me - I only ever really got the Tactical Advice on turn 1 anyway as I play Shark very aggressively, so it's barely a concern for me...

That 1 extra Inf in turn one is usually massive for a Shark team though, given that all of turn 1 is usually half of the game for that kind of team.

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