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It did at least make the opposition think a touch more about their selection - especially those who usually went Union heavy. Now it is pretty much irrelevant as with only 1 you can either not select at all or just hide them on opposite side of pitch.

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2 hours ago, Chinos said:

It did at least make the opposition think a touch more about their selection - especially those who usually went Union heavy. Now it is pretty much irrelevant as with only 1 you can either not select at all or just hide them on opposite side of pitch.

You don't think dictating which models your opponent uses or where they put them on the pitch is relevant? Okay...

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I've never found Usurper to be that relevant. Usually if VRage is engaging one of the enemy's Union models (none of which have Unpredictable Movement or are particularly durable) they're pretty much dead whether he's getting +1 TAC or not. It's not like he's bad at putting the damage out when hitting non-Union models.

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19 minutes ago, FearLord said:

You don't think dictating which models your opponent uses or where they put them on the pitch is relevant? Okay...

Actually, was trying to say it was relevant. Unfortunately I'm not great at getting my point across.

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So today's blog released the rules on Minx, and there's no "Selective" rule on the card.  Blog states that's not a typo.  Could it be the "1 Union player" rule is because everyone is about to get access to every Union player??

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1 hour ago, Grenoir said:

So today's blog released the rules on Minx, and there's no "Selective" rule on the card.  Blog states that's not a typo.  Could it be the "1 Union player" rule is because everyone is about to get access to every Union player??

I really Hope so! But could be that It has the new Guild on It and they don't want to reveal It until SteamCon or a mix put with which Union players play for which Guilds.

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The wording of them talking about her Snared ability doesn't line up with every guild gettibg every Union player  they said something like "now some other guilds besides Hunters have access to Snared" which tells me there's still limitations. Maybe that's just in the core rulebook now?

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I'm a bit surprised the heavy focus on the Season 3 Minx was the lack of Selective and not how good she has gotten. OMG.... I thought she was already good but now she's gone bonkers. These changes have made removing her from either of my union line-ups (Blackheart or VRage) almost impossible.

Now I start to wonder how the rest of the Union will fare through the Season 3 update. Hmmm, maybe I'll get my desired control focused Gutter back despite everyone wanting her to be singly focused on Scything blow?

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1 hour ago, Nix said:

I'm a bit surprised the heavy focus on the Season 3 Minx was the lack of Selective and not how good she has gotten. OMG.... I thought she was already good but now she's gone bonkers. These changes have made removing her from either of my union line-ups (Blackheart or VRage) almost impossible.

Now I start to wonder how the rest of the Union will fare through the Season 3 update. Hmmm, maybe I'll get my desired control focused Gutter back despite everyone wanting her to be singly focused on Scything blow?

I'm more surprised by some people (in the Hunters Guild forum) saying Minx is "weak" or "weak-ish" with these changes.  I think she's amazing now.

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1 hour ago, Nix said:

I'm a bit surprised the heavy focus on the Season 3 Minx was the lack of Selective and not how good she has gotten. OMG.... I thought she was already good but now she's gone bonkers. These changes have made removing her from either of my union line-ups (Blackheart or VRage) almost impossible.

Now I start to wonder how the rest of the Union will fare through the Season 3 update. Hmmm, maybe I'll get my desired control focused Gutter back despite everyone wanting her to be singly focused on Scything blow?

I'm more surprised by some people (in the Hunters Guild forum) saying Minx is "weak" or "weak-ish" with these changes.  I think she's amazing now.

As seen here: 

 

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@kryzak I saw that too but just shook my head and grinned to myself. Theron, Fahad, Seenah, Minx, Jaecar, Zarola looks to be an awfully nasty lineup now. 11 influence with 3 furious models and fairly simple access to snared.

I was also confused and chuckled a bit at the opinion that return to shadows on Minx was not enough to get her to safety, but somehow it is enough for Jaecar. The two models have the same access to dodges in their playbook.

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I think I don't read @tarkand's comment the same way you do... I got the feeling he was saying "Minx'll be good. She won't be a strong damage dealer, so technically 'weak', but she'll be a good utility player to the point of being an almost auto-include"

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25 minutes ago, Nix said:

I was also confused and chuckled a bit at the opinion that return to shadows on Minx was not enough to get her to safety, but somehow it is enough for Jaecar. The two models have the same access to dodges in their playbook.

An important difference is Jaecar has Gut & String.  If he G&S someone, drops a trap, pushes them into it, hits them for 2-4 damage, then dodges 5-6" away, he's practically unreachable.  That model has -6/-6 MOV that can only be reduced to -4/-4 at most.  With Screeching Banshee changing from -4/-4 MOV to -1 DEF (which is a change I like, don't get me wrong), Minx can only give a model -2/-2 MOV which can be removed entirely.  Minx is also a bit of a glass cannon, so she can definitely go down fairly easily compared to Jaecar.  I do want to clarify that I don't think Minx is weak or that Back to the Shadows on her isn't good, but it's definitely better on Jaecar.

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7 minutes ago, Dude said:

An important difference is Jaecar has Gut & String.  If he G&S someone, drops a trap, pushes them into it, hits them for 2-4 damage, then dodges 5-6" away, he's practically unreachable.  That model has -6/-6 MOV that can only be reduced to -4/-4 at most.  With Screeching Banshee changing from -4/-4 MOV to -1 DEF (which is a change I like, don't get me wrong), Minx can only give a model -2/-2 MOV which can be removed entirely.  Minx is also a bit of a glass cannon, so she can definitely go down fairly easily compared to Jaecar.  I do want to clarify that I don't think Minx is weak or that Back to the Shadows on her isn't good, but it's definitely better on Jaecar.

 

I can see your point. I guess it comes down to how people play Jaecar and the choices they pick. I find I rarely forego the momentous results for G&S unless I have another compelling reason to use it (i.e. follow-up by Fahad or Seenah).

I have to admit that I do not feel like 4/1 and 12 health is fragile, but that's purely a matter of opinion. Then again, I also found S2 Minx to be a viable option for Gutter in my Blackheart lists, despite the more popular notions.

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Also, it's less about whether Minx is more fragile than Jaecar (12 health with 4/1 is roughly the same as 14 health with 4/0, right?), it's more:

If you are the opponent, facing Jaecar and Minx on the same team, who would you focus on taking out first?  Jaecar with 4 INF or Minx with 0?  Jaecar does more damage and bad things to you with 4 INF, so if you want to focus on taking out Minx, I as the Hunter player will be very happy you made that decision. :P  

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26 minutes ago, kryzak said:

Also, it's less about whether Minx is more fragile than Jaecar (12 health with 4/1 is roughly the same as 14 health with 4/0, right?), it's more:

If you are the opponent, facing Jaecar and Minx on the same team, who would you focus on taking out first?  Jaecar with 4 INF or Minx with 0?  Jaecar does more damage and bad things to you with 4 INF, so if you want to focus on taking out Minx, I as the Hunter player will be very happy you made that decision. :P  

That's kind of a moot point, however :

If you are the opponent, facing [Player A] and [Player B] on the same team, who would you focus on taking out first?  [Player A] with 4 INF or [Player B] with 0?

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1 minute ago, Spinsane said:

That's kind of a moot point, however :

If you are the opponent, facing [Player A] and [Player B] on the same team, who would you focus on taking out first?  [Player A] with 4 INF or [Player B] with 0?

That is exactly my point.  This is addressing the point that someone said that Minx is too fragile/not safe.  

Let me rephrase:  Minx is pretty safe, even with her stats (which I still argue is almost equivalent to Jaecar), because why would an opponent try to take out a model with 0 INF over one with 4 (and more dangerous)? :)  

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Was that the point he was making, however? He said she's weakish, meaning she won't do much damage and adding extra influence on her won't do much at all. She's physically, in the "circus strongman" sense of the term, weak. And in that regards, he's right. That doesn't mean she's a weak player, which is exactly what he was saying (imho).

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2 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Was that the point he was making, however? He said she's weakish, meaning she won't do much damage and adding extra influence on her won't do much at all. She's physically, in the "circus strongman" sense of the term, weak. And in that regards, he's right. That doesn't mean she's a weak player, which is exactly what he was saying (imho).

Based on the Hunters discussion, he's comparing the new Minx to the existing Zarola, calling them "similar" in usefulness and thus both are in his 8 person lineup.  My point to him and here (and of course this is my personal opinion and I'm not mocking him or anything) is that the new Minx is NOT "similar" to the existing Zarola.  New Minx is a much better model now for what she brings to the team, and that's where I believe we disagreed with each other.

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15 minutes ago, kryzak said:

Based on the Hunters discussion, he's comparing the new Minx to the existing Zarola, calling them "similar" in usefulness and thus both are in his 8 person lineup.  My point to him and here (and of course this is my personal opinion and I'm not mocking him or anything) is that the new Minx is NOT "similar" to the existing Zarola.  New Minx is a much better model now for what she brings to the team, and that's where I believe we disagreed with each other.

Still, will her being better warrant assigning her any influence? (Beyond maybe 1 if she's already locked in combat so she can proc the -DEF even if she can't charge) ? Even with 2 INF she won't do much more than with 0, so there isn't really any reason to drop any on her...

Why is it you equate weak with bad?

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25 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Still, will her being better warrant assigning her any influence? (Beyond maybe 1 if she's already locked in combat so she can proc the -DEF even if she can't charge) ? Even with 2 INF she won't do much more than with 0, so there isn't really any reason to drop any on her...

Why is it you equate weak with bad?

I don't think my personal point was about assigning Minx INF.  I normally don't, so I'm in agreement with tankard and others on not really assigning INF to her.  

"Why is it that I equate weak with bad?"  - I'm not going to answer this because that is not the point.  I already explained myself 2 posts earlier.  So I'm not going to belabor this any more since it looks like we're not getting across to each other.  

Let's just look forward to all the cool new S3 cards coming out soon! :) 

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I find the idea that she won't do much more with 2 than with 0 to be interesting and an opinion I do not agree with. Minx with 2 influence can charge a target from 10 inches away (12" if the target it already hurt), reliably landing 4 hits on the charge. This would result in a momentous 2 damage plus a 1-inch dodge to position reach an optimal position if not there already. It's only a slight reach to look for 6 successes to account for armor, which lands Screeching Banshee. 

Even assuming only average rolls leaving just the 4 successes, the following attacks are still landing 1 momentous damage a roll, with only average rolls accounted for. She then uses the final hit to dodge an inch, then back to the shadows for an additional 4 inches away. This resulted in 3 momentum and 4 damage for a total investment of 2 influence.

Now let's make things a bit crazy. On a Capt. Rage legendary turn where she's charging his target, the math shifts a fair bit. Her charge attack becomes Screeching Banshee for 2 damage plus -2 defense. Her follow-up 2 hits become momentous 4 damage each ending with a 2-inch dodge then the BttS for an additional 4 inches. 6 damage, -2 defense, -2 movement, and 2 momentum for 2 influence investment.

Minx benefits hugely from Singled out, gang up, and any damage buff such as Commanding Aura, Tooled up, or Bloody Coin. In each of those cases, her damage against a single target jumps to the same range as Gutter or Decimate, and is equally momentous. Add in the fact she can charge from further out and it's kind of crazy.

So I do agree that alone she is only putting out a bit of damage and the bulk is on her charge. Given even a little bit of set-up she becomes awfully respectable. Given a fair bit of set-up it becomes just silly. Take this for an example.

Blackheart and Avarisse both engaging the target model. Commanding Aura is up and Avarisse has landed singled out on the model. Rage tools up Minx because he could not get to the target. Minx charges from 12 inches away with 2 influence on her. Charge attack vs "standard 4/1" is 6 hits for 6 damage, -2 def, -2 mv. Follow-up attacks are 7 hits for 8 damage 2 momentum a piece, followed by a 7-inch dodge away from combat after the last hit. So the end result is 22 points of damage, -2df, -2mv, 4 momentum, Minx ending 7 inches from the combat. It takes some set-up but not as much as it appears, as that whole run only costs 6 influence total.

An awful lot goes into a single game of Guild Ball so it's tough to look at things in a vacuum. I'd urge people to think about her on the table instead of just looking at her solo. It's pretty clear to me she does not want to be the "last man standing" on the field, that's when she's weakest on the team. Even 1 friend or a little set-up elsewhere makes Minx awfully respectable for combat though.

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1 minute ago, Nix said:

 

An awful lot goes into a single game of Guild Ball so it's tough to look at things in a vacuum. I'd urge people to think about her on the table instead of just looking at her solo. It's pretty clear to me she does not want to be the "last man standing" on the field, that's when she's weakest on the team. Even 1 friend or a little set-up elsewhere makes Minx awfully respectable for combat though.

Nix is way more articulate than I.  Good stuff @Nix!

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To add a bit to what Nix was saying, Minx's access to easy momentous dodges actually make her quite the secondary striker. I already used her in that role with my boy vRage, and she's just become straight better at that. She can't directly compete with Mist, of course, but in mid-to-lategame situations I almost always find myself scoring with non-dedicated strikers more than dedicated strikers. Just something about how the scrum shakes out. In terms of positioning especially, Back to the Shadows combined with a bit of foresight across the turn line should make Minx excellent at keeping and extending a lead once its achieved. 

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