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A&G Changes

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They definitely need a change.  The extra activation IS a big deal, but the bigger problem is just that they don't function well when playing them as they seem to be designed.  Greede needs to give Avarisse +1/0 Inf when attached for one and the attach/detach mechanic needs to be a lot more intuitive.  I'd love to see the extra activation go away and Greede actually function within Avarisse's activation.

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53 minutes ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

So one of the Steamcon Limited Edition figures is Avarisse kicking Greede like the Big League plot card. Is it in homage to the or an induction of a change in S3?

I thought the same :)

I think that A&G will be Linked so you can do some cool things with Avarisse passing to space and dropping off Greede on the final resting place. Then Greed goes next and Scores a Goal,

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A&G spotted!

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15241877_10157803972860483_4272852873421

15171163_1158547550907329_37772148899871

15219539_1158547520907332_87621751499181

Contract defo how rookies are gonna work. Like the fact they removed Greedes DEF boost, and the spending of Avarisse's INF will make him more risk/reward than before.

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I really don't like how you need to have Greede out in order to get the extra influence. I hope that there are changes to how influence is generated in the rulebook proper -- as it stands, I believe that this and Casket (if he's unchanged) are the only ways to have a model not be on the pitch during influence generation any more, so it isn't unreasonable to think that influence is just automatically generated for all of your players and not just the ones on the pitch. If that's the case, then I love the new A&G. If that isn't the case, then I'm not certain they're playable, and if they are playable it'll be through the same hide Greede behind the goalpost style gameplay we saw in seasons 1 and 2. Speaking of which, it would also be cool if it were possible to allocate influence to an off the pitch Greede, expecting a big play from the duo.

I do like how Greede can attach himself at the start of their shared activation, have Avarisse move, detach, and then move himself all in the same activation. I like how the two of them can potentially pass back and forth between each other to get teamwork actions, although of course Avarisse's 1/6" kick is kinda hairy there.

I love the idea of Greede popping in and out of the pocket to score goals OR slice and dice on a model that Avarisse has singled out for him. I just really really hope that Steamforged isn't actively punishing A&G for utilizing the pocket by hitting the player in the most precious resource the game has -- influence. Because if that's how it works, then I see the same goalkeeper Greede stat being the only way they're being played, which is mighty unfortunate. Greede has to be able to go into and out of that pocket if he's going to be upfield in any significant manner.

I would like to point out that we have successfully identified Greede's species, now -- he's definitively a human now, whereas before he was some sort of animalistic feral leprechaun apparently.

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6 minutes ago, Khift said:

I really don't like how you need to have Greede out in order to get the extra influence. I'm not certain they're playable, and if they are playable it'll be through the same hide Greede behind the goalpost style gameplay we saw in seasons 1 and 2.

Speaking of which, it would also be cool if it were possible to allocate influence to an off the pitch Greede, expecting a big play from the duo.

I think that would be a little greedy. There are plenty of other characters with 1 INF (Hearne, for instance) and InSync means INF allocated to Avarisse is effectively allocated to Greede as well. Greede's INF is a bonus, like he is a bonus player.

7 minutes ago, Khift said:

I do like how Greede can attach himself at the start of their shared activation, have Avarisse move, detach, and then move himself all in the same activation. I like how the two of them can potentially pass back and forth between each other to get teamwork actions, although of course Avarisse's 1/6" kick is kinda hairy there.

The during activation separation is pretty good, and mitigated now by Contract so it's not too broken (we hope).

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If Greede is attached, Avarisse can walk, get a T>> on two hits, get the ball, detach Greede, WTG/walk and shoot. That's a kind of ridiculous goal threat from a model that still has a ton of value in the bash game

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2 minutes ago, S_A_T_S said:

I think that would be a little greedy. There are plenty of other characters with 1 INF (Hearne, for instance) and InSync means INF allocated to Avarisse is effectively allocated to Greede as well. Greede's INF is a bonus, like he is a bonus player.

The during activation separation is pretty good, and mitigated now by Contract so it's not too broken (we hope).

Here's the problem, though: you do not have the option to play Hearne or Ghast or Fangtooth in a manner where they function as a 2 inf character. You DO have the option of playing A&G as a 2 inf character. You could play A&G as a 1 inf character who has the ability to maybe make a breakout play using Greede, or, you could drop Greede off at the goal post like we've been doing since the game came out and have a 2 inf character.

I just don't see these potential plays being worth the loss of inf. Avarisse doesn't often find himself with 3 inf on him that Greede can utilize if he pops out, and Avarisse usually isn't pushed up far enough that Greede is any kind of goal threat at all. So if you carry him around in the pocket you're effectively paying an inf every turn for the privilege of maybe being able to use Greede and that's just throwing good money after bad.

The game should encourage you to play the characters as they're designed to be played. A&G are clearly designed to be played as a duo -- it should not punish you for doing that, and it should not reward a player for doing the horribly unthematic drop Greede off at the daycare center approach we've seen used for so long.

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12 minutes ago, Frostmane said:

If Greede is attached, Avarisse can walk, get a T>> on two hits, get the ball, detach Greede, WTG/walk and shoot. That's a kind of ridiculous goal threat from a model that still has a ton of value in the bash game

4" jog from Avarisse, + ~1.2" gain from placing Greede in front, + 4" jog from Greede, +2" WTG (Greede still has to remain within 6" of Avarisse to spend Avarisse's inf), + 6" shot = 17.2" score threat. And that's all 3 influence Avarisse can provide. The tackle is nice, but it's not some huge insurmountable table length strike. It also means almost certainly sacrificing Greede, and with my preiliminary understanding of how the new icy sponge rule works you will be forced to place Greede back on the pitch in your deployment zone next maintenance phase so he's basically out of the game forever. You could then proceed to hide him, but it's very much a one-shot sort of thing.

Edit: You gain an inch if you sprint Avarisse and skip the WTG, so ~18.2". Better, but again it's not Mist or Flint or Shark tier by any stretch of the imagination.

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4 minutes ago, Khift said:

Here's the problem, though: you do not have the option to play Hearne or Ghast or Fangtooth in a manner where they function as a 2 inf character. You DO have the option of playing A&G as a 2 inf character. You could play A&G as a 1 inf character who has the ability to maybe make a breakout play using Greede, or, you could drop Greede off at the goal post like we've been doing since the game came out and have a 2 inf character.

I just don't see these potential plays being worth the loss of inf. Avarisse doesn't often find himself with 3 inf on him that Greede can utilize if he pops out, and Avarisse usually isn't pushed up far enough that Greede is any kind of goal threat at all. So if you carry him around in the pocket you're effectively paying an inf every turn for the privilege of maybe being able to use Greede and that's just throwing good money after bad.

The game should encourage you to play the characters as they're designed to be played. A&G are clearly designed to be played as a duo -- it should not punish you for doing that, and it should not reward a player for doing the horribly unthematic drop Greede off at the daycare center approach we've seen used for so long.

The thing about this entire argument that I think devalues it is you keep referring to Avarisse or Greede 'not often' being in a place or having 3 INF. The rules have changed significantly - how you used them before is not going to be the same as how you use them now. Loading 3 INF on Avarisse is now viable. Their goal threat, in-activation detach and Many Hands... make moving them up the pitch worth doing. The loss of the extra activation makes dropping him at the day care centre pointless, unless all you really want is Avarisse at 2/3 INF and no Greede. I'd like Seenah to be 1/2 or 2/2, but I'm not going to complain, it's pretty awesome already, as are the new A&G. They ARE meant to be used as a duo, and that is how these changes encourage you to play them.

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2 minutes ago, S_A_T_S said:

The thing about this entire argument that I think devalues it is you keep referring to Avarisse or Greede 'not often' being in a place or having 3 INF. The rules have changed significantly - how you used them before is not going to be the same as how you use them now. Loading 3 INF on Avarisse is now viable. Their goal threat, in-activation detach and Many Hands... make moving them up the pitch worth doing. The loss of the extra activation makes dropping him at the day care centre pointless, unless all you really want is Avarisse at 2/3 INF and no Greede. I'd like Seenah to be 1/2 or 2/2, but I'm not going to complain, it's pretty awesome already, as are the new A&G. They ARE meant to be used as a duo, and that is how these changes encourage you to play them.

You misunderstand my fundamental point. It's a question of guaranteed ongoing return versus potential future value. Every turn you don't use Greede is a turn where you have passively wasted an influence. This is the same mistake I see people make all the time in how they evaluate Rage and Boar. New players will say, "Oh my god look how much Rage/Boar can do with only one influence!", but in truth just having them on your team costs you an influence per turn so their activations are in all intents and purposes two inf activations.

Maybe I am wrong and the payout or even the just threat of the payout of a big Greede play is worth that passive cost, but I just don't really see it. You say, maybe with the new rules you'll have a 3 inf Avarisse more often, but in truth that's not a 3 inf Avarisse that's a 4 inf Avarisse and I can't see that loss of efficiency being worth it.

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It's very much worth it. Fish players trade 2/4 inf models for 4vp all day long. yeah he has a "weakness" of sorta costing 1 inf to keep safe, but take a moment to realize how much safer a model that isn't on the field, but can still be used is than any other model on the field with 1 inf. 

If you're not worried about keeping him safe because you want to pass the inf off, have him out as a juicy target for you to counter punch with Avarisse and other guys afterwards. Just the same as I can choose to not use nimble or decoy or what have you because I want that 1 inf for offense.

This is the best thing that could happen to A&G imo, as now they'll be there for something beyond activation advantage. I actually get to make plays rather than hide behind the goal post and stomp around with a 4" jog

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What happens to Greede's influence if he's attached and detached in the same turn?

Say they start the turn in B2B, given 1 and 3.  Start the activation, attach Greede.  Avarisse charges the ball-carrier for a tackle-knockdown, then detaches Greede and gives him the ball.  Can Greede spend Avarrise's last INF to where'd they go, then walk and spend his INF to kick?

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9 minutes ago, JimO said:

What happens to Greede's influence if he's attached and detached in the same turn?

Say they start the turn in B2B, given 1 and 3.  Start the activation, attach Greede.  Avarisse charges the ball-carrier for a tackle-knockdown, then detaches Greede and gives him the ball.  Can Greede spend Avarrise's last INF to where'd they go, then walk and spend his INF to kick?

The way Creation works currently (and I believe has been confirmed to still work this way) is that if a model has influence on it when it's taken out, then is brought back to the pitch the same turn, it returns with any influence it already had and can activate as normal.  So Greede should retain his 1 influence when he attaches and detaches in your example.  

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14 minutes ago, Dude said:

The way Creation works currently (and I believe has been confirmed to still work this way) is that if a model has influence on it when it's taken out, then is brought back to the pitch the same turn, it returns with any influence it already had and can activate as normal.  So Greede should retain his 1 influence when he attaches and detaches in your example.  

Flipping through the rulebook it does seem to support that. There's no mention of removing influence from a model either when it is TO'd or removed from the pitch, nor is there mention of models off the pitch being unable to possess influence, just being unable to gain or be allocated it.

If that is how it works here, then that does vastly improve things. Dropping Greede off behind Avarisse at the end of their activation becomes an incredibly high risk / high reward tactic that can potentially lead to some pretty absurd plays. But, even just a simple push on Avarisse's easy to hit 3+ Def can separate the two and ruin that plan something awful, let alone any attempt to TO Greede.

Also, I want to point out that I know I'm sounding negative here, but I really do think that this is an enormous improvement over what A&G were. Season 1/2 A&G were, in my opinion, the worst models in all of Guild Ball. Not in power level, of course, but in terms of game design. They were horribly static, didn't play anything like they should, and worst of all were considered so powerful as to be practically mandatory in tournament builds. S3 A&G is absolutely leagues better than S2 A&G; I just worry that maybe it didn't go far enough. The duo are far and away my favorite sculpts of the entire range, but learning that they just didn't work the way that they present themselves to was the second biggest disappointment Guild Ball ever gave me and I really want them to make up for that now. So, if I seem overly critical it is largely out of a desire to see them really shine.

(The first biggest disappoint was, of course, the Brewers token set.)

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I'm super excited about the changes. One of my favorite aspects of Guild Ball is the thematic design intergrated into each card. You read the fluff and see it reflected in the players cards. The new A&G feel like a true duo that offers you a lot of opinions and makes it hard for your opponent to react to all the possibilities.

People seem afraid to trade a Greed goal for the 2vp of him being taken out. Timing seems to be a key issue to successful pulling it off. Wait until last activation when your winning the momentum race to score with Greed. That way you can activate Avarisse first next turn to pick him up. I can't wait to single out someone, drop Greed, and watch him roll all those dice. (Tac 7 + 2 Singled Out + 1 Ganging Up = 10 Dice Attack!)

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4 hours ago, Khift said:

S3 A&G is absolutely leagues better than S2 A&G; I just worry that maybe it didn't go far enough. The duo are far and away my favorite sculpts of the entire range

Let's not get crazy here, the number one reason why they were taken was the power of a 7th activation, since that is gone now we pretty much have them for easy tackles and gotcha plays. That been said I think they will still see play but it will probably just be a very small minority (including myself) that wants them in their Union roster. I don't think they will see much play outside of Union tho

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If I'm reading this correctly then with Greede attached if Avarisse scores three hits on an attack he can select tackle, resulting in two tackle results, and overcome close control. Have I got that right or have I missed something?

Either way I'm excited at the prospect of using this duo at last. Their previous version didn't sit right with me so I ignored them. This looks a lot more fun.

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If greede gets to keep inf after attaching and detaching that boosts their goal threat to 24" unless im mistaken. Start b2b full allocation, run 7, detach 1~ inch, dodge 4, run 6, kick 6.

That's 3" more than Shark and for 1 inf less (dodge 4, run 9, kick 8) making A&G one of the best first turn goals in the game.

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So is it legal to attach Greede at the beginning of his activation, move Avarisse, detach Greede, and then do stuff with Greede? I know they activate simultaneously, but whatshe the limit on interrupting one activation for the other?

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28 minutes ago, MandalorynOranj said:

So is it legal to attach Greede at the beginning of his activation, move Avarisse, detach Greede, and then do stuff with Greede? I know they activate simultaneously, but whatshe the limit on interrupting one activation for the other?

There doesn't appear to be any restrictions to how you activate them and in essence they are a single activation. 

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On 11/26/2016 at 5:16 PM, Ik-tornado said:

If greede gets to keep inf after attaching and detaching that boosts their goal threat to 24" unless im mistaken. Start b2b full allocation, run 7, detach 1~ inch, dodge 4, run 6, kick 6.

That's 3" more than Shark and for 1 inf less (dodge 4, run 9, kick 8) making A&G one of the best first turn goals in the game.

Doesn't work turn 1, as Greede starts the game off the pitch (and thus unallocateable)

P.S. That's deffo a word.

Edit: Hmmm actually, there's nothing saying he starts off the pitch so i guess he's deployed like any other model. Super goal threat is a go!

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6 hours ago, MaxT said:

Doesn't work turn 1, as Greede starts the game off the pitch (and thus unallocateable)

P.S. That's deffo a word.

Edit: Hmmm actually, there's nothing saying he starts off the pitch so i guess he's deployed like any other model. Super goal threat is a go!

This is correct. The old Benched rule used to specify that Greede started the game off of the pitch, but it would allow you to detach him before influence was generated for the first turn. The new Benched rule does not specify that Greede starts the game off the pitch, so presumably you actually have to place him in your initial deployment. I don't think you even have the option to start him off in the pocket -- he's on your roster, and there's no allotment for keeping him off the pitch, so he must go on the pitch.

The new rules have no changes in how influence is generated or allocated. So, a Greede that is in the pocket during the maintenance phase doesn't generate influence and cannot be assigned influence. Similarly, nothing has changed with regards to models losing any assigned influence when they are removed from the pitch, so attaching Greede while he has an influence on him and then detaching him later in the activation should still work.

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