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A&G Changes

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12 minutes ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

Can't see that happening, you'd end up with a lot of non Union players who have a model they can't use. Could give them different abilities in and out of Union though.

Come on, you know it's hyperbole to claim that nerfing a model makes it unusable. Decimate was nerfed, still used. Mist was nerfed, still used. Gutter was nerfed, still used. Hemlocke was nerfed, still used.

Unrelated comment not directed at you, whoever designed Union definitely put them too high on the power curve. I'm not saying he needs it, but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if Rage was nerfed too.

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8 hours ago, Dracilic said:

I don't get what your point is? Flint isn't in every Mason's list and A&G isn't in every list. Not saying he doesn't need tweaking. I just don't see what point, if any, you are trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make is that in this game even the best models aren't played all the time but A&G are close enough that for me it gets a bit suspicious. Especially because it's across a wide variety of Guilds and Captains, in some cases to the point that it seems their abilities other than bringing an extra activation are just extra. Which is a potential issue in itself: if (definitely an if for me, since I don't think it is, but lots of people seem to think so) the extra activation is enough to warrant inclusion in teams that don't value anything else they do, just how good does that make them for teams who do like a model with solid KD and Push results as well as Singled Out? 

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6 hours ago, Talamare said:

Come on, you know it's hyperbole to claim that nerfing a model makes it unusable. Decimate was nerfed, still used. Mist was nerfed, still used. Gutter was nerfed, still used. Hemlocke was nerfed, still used.

Unrelated comment not directed at you, whoever designed Union definitely put them too high on the power curve. I'm not saying he needs it, but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if Rage was nerfed too.

Not hyperbole at all, I was answering the post above. If you make a model currently available to all Guild only available to the Union it is unusable by all others by definition.

Power curve is difficult to judge as Union aren't dominating. It's the use of Union in other guilds that is more of the issue rather than the players themselves. Gutter, decimate, Rage and mist are considered some of the best players in the game but that team isn't dominating.

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7 hours ago, the_aY said:

You wouldn't need an errata constantly. For analogue gaming, it's just a little much. But in the video game world, actually, that does happen for the most competitive and well-supported games through patching.

I'm not saying that just because something is good and widely used though, that is reason alone for a nerf. What I am saying is, that A+G is actually acting as a detriment to the game. Aside from my statements in a previous post:

"The TLDR: This rule does take away from the game. It's not cheap. It doesn't feel dirty to use them. And extra activations is not OP in itself.

But what it DOES do, is that it waters down the game. It makes it a 5v5 + Avaraisse and Greed for both teams, game. It takes the unique, character-filled game, and essentially puts in a big splash of monotone. And it adds an un-necessary game-within-a-game scenario that doesn't really add to the fun in any meaningful way."

He is actually disproportionately being used BECAUSE he can work for EVERY faction. Flint being in every Mason's list is not a problem if he was designed to be that team's primary striker. Seeing that this game has teams with only 10ish man rosters available, there just isn't choice yet. But that choice get's reduced even further if A+G is taking up a slot in a disproportionate number of lists. Let's be clear: I'm not saying the sky is falling. It's not even a huge issue, as A+G isn't actually THAT powerful to the point of calling it OP. But it does do the part I bolded above, and that is not a good thing for the game in the long run.

I don't think he is played nearly as much as people claim. If you were to look at every tournament list before Gencon I doubt that he would be in 60% or more of the lists. Unfortunately I can't find that information. But I really think his use is being blown way out of proportion. Is he overused? Very possible. Is it is as bad as people are making it out to be? I don't think so.

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Well I was talking to a buddy that went to GenCon and another change may be coming that would help with this scenario. The rumor is Steamforged is potentially limiting 8 man lists to 2 Union models and only 1 is allowed on the pitch at a time. A&G may see a lot less play if it's choosing the pair over a more needed role player.

And don't get me wrong from above. I wasn't suggesting making the pair Union only, just theorizing if there would be any complaints (beyond the normal) if they were.

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2 hours ago, riffbw said:

Well I was talking to a buddy that went to GenCon and another change may be coming that would help with this scenario. The rumor is Steamforged is potentially limiting 8 man lists to 2 Union models and only 1 is allowed on the pitch at a time. A&G may see a lot less play if it's choosing the pair over a more needed role player.

And don't get me wrong from above. I wasn't suggesting making the pair Union only, just theorizing if there would be any complaints (beyond the normal) if they were.

I personally really like that too.  I love that Union can play for other teams, but for every Union model one brings, it dilutes that team's flavor by a little bit more.  Limiting it to 2 for the tournament 8 and 1 in the starting 6 lineup I think would be nice.  This way you can still add that mercenary feel without having 1/2 your team as Union sometimes...

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I like the idea of limiting the number of Union models in the eight. I was at a tournament yesterday and I looked over at a team I thought was Union, but it was Alchemists. The team had Midas, Vitriol and Flask, then five Union players filling out the eight. At that point are you still Alchemists?

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11 minutes ago, MidwestJedi said:

I like the idea of limiting the number of Union models in the eight. I was at a tournament yesterday and I looked over at a team I thought was Union, but it was Alchemists. The team had Midas, Vitriol and Flask, then five Union players filling out the eight. At that point are you still Alchemists?

I disagree that this is a bad thing. Of anything its a good thing because it allows people to experiment and try different things. I dislike arbitrary restrictions because of some perceived identity of a team. The game was designed with the intent of being able to bring union models. Maybe if every alchemist player was bringing 5 union models of could be a problem. But they don't. 

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17 minutes ago, MidwestJedi said:

I like the idea of limiting the number of Union models in the eight. I was at a tournament yesterday and I looked over at a team I thought was Union, but it was Alchemists. The team had Midas, Vitriol and Flask, then five Union players filling out the eight. At that point are you still Alchemists?

Teams are balanced around their available players. That includes their Union options. It's a bit of a shame Alchemists are often played with a significant number of non-Guild models, but the solution for that shouldn't be to restrict their access to those; the solution should be to provide players with more incentive to use more Alchemist models. Alchemists don't deserve what in practice amounts to a not insignificant nerf.

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THe extra activation is VERY strong. Coming from an Alch player, both captains LOVE when they can dictate when they go.

Smoke loves going. making sure that all the conditions stick. That alone is worth taking A&G (if you have the room)

Midas loves it too, Midas will pretty much do what he wants, so if he can do what he wants last, and build the MOM to go first next turn, thats a 6-8 point activation alot of the time. So by taking A&G to be up on the game 6-0 or 8-0. i will take that every time.

 

Is A&G a MUST include...no. Is he the best player for that spot....no. Is the extra activation counter-able....yes...in many ways.

Its a gimmick. I dont think it will last long, but its alot of fun now!

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I'm in agreement that they'll end up with a linked activation. It's still powerful, but not as powerful. That said, I don't think they are game breaking in any way, though I do think that their ubiquity creates a potentially negative, or at least stagnant play experience. Steamforged have been really good about keeping the game as fun and vibrant as possible, so I have complete faith that they'll make a valuable change. 

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Personal thoughts given limited experience, for what it may be worth, are that A&G should generally remain as they are. I would generally agree with others in that they bring a unique mechanic to the game which in itself is not too overpowering.

 

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1 hour ago, Rendorin said:

Personal thoughts given limited experience, for what it may be worth, are that A&G should generally remain as they are. I would generally agree with others in that they bring a unique mechanic to the game which in itself is not too overpowering.

 

You are right that it is not overpowering, but there are some things to consider:

-An extra activation is fundamentally changing part of how the game is played. The sequential activation of your turn, my turn is how this game works. Having an extra activation is something that can be earned by making a good takeout, and it is often a good factor when deciding what model to try to eliminate. However, this model gives everyone a chance to take an extra activation, on a chassis that also provides a lot.

-That is the other issue. A+G are actually more than decent. Even without the extra activation, you have a big, durable model with a momentous Singled Out on one, and easy access to KD. Greede incidentally just effectively acts as a goal tender who can randomly kick really well. Meanwhile, this duo also just happens to generate 2 INF. Even if they are not the ideal choice sometimes, they are always a solid choice. So, if you have a solid choice that is available in every list, and it just also happens to give you an identifiable advantage that is always on without you setting anything up, it is kind of a big deal. 

-So to put it simply: A+G are actually good models that many people take for the extra activation. They aren't really sacrificing anything by taking them, as they still contribute to the team in a variety of ways. It would be a different story if they had garbage rules and ONLY contributed with an extra activation.

I will be the first to say that A+G aren't THAT good. But they are good enough that it is ALWAYS a good choice to use them, even if it's not ideal.

Even without an extra activation, we will probably see them pretty frequently for the various reasons listed above. They just wont be so obvious to include to a bunch of people who are currently taking them.

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I'm really not the most experienced player out there, but it seems to me that one of the largest issues with A&G is that Greede's extreme vulnerability is really not much of a problem for him if he can hang back at the goal or in the corner of the field.

I think a something like having Greede at 0/4 influence and Avarisse gaining the character trait: Tactical Advice [Greede]  could be an effective way of leveraging the bonus activation and influence generation through increased risk.

It may be to extreme, because Greede is pretty vulnerable.  

 

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If SFG thinks this has become an actual problem, I could see them balancing this out with the rookies honestly. Leave the pair mostly unchanged but Greede now takes up your rookie slot (and maybe is able to start on the field as well, for balance). Now if you take them it's because you want the pair themselves, not the extra activation. I can see this becoming a problem where they're no longer played but depending on how powerful/weak rookies are and what your team looks like, Avarice might fit really well into your team and Greede might be better than other available rookies you might choose. The problem with this could be INF generation. The pair generates 2 but if rookies generate 1 then most teams will gain 1 INF for free while teams still using A&G would gain nothing. Again though, if Greede is better than the rookies it could maintain the balance as many "superior" players only generate 1 (or none in Seenah's case). It also means that any player whose team gained a rookie that completely doesn't fit their (the player's) style they still have a Union option, one they've possibly used all along anyway.

If they do this it would bring the normal amount of activations for all teams to 7, outside Superior Strategy which as discussed by others doesn't directly contribute to VP generation as well as costing effectively 3 INF to gain the extra activation. It will also bring A&G to a place where I think Greede will need to take a more active role in games. His inability to come back from a takeout and general fragility might line up with the rookies anyway, so using him more actively wouldn't put anyone at a direct disadvantage.

 

Alternately, giving them a forced Linked activation seems the easiest change to make without taking away all of the power that the pairing brings to the table. Linked really only seems to be game-changing in specific situations that only come up once or twice per game. You'd still get 7 players on the field with an assumed 8th player when rookies come out, and aside from two models going back-to-back you don't really gain any activations. That would mean using Greede actively gives you potential for some really great plays, but sitting him in the back gains you next to nothing outside a few situations where maybe the ball scattered after a missed kick or you want Greede to pass it up the field after an opposing goal.

 

Having said all of this, I don't think they are as much of a problem as everyone else seems to. In my local area, which is admittedly new (we all bought into the game about 3 months ago), out of 16 regular players where every Guild is represented at least twice except Engineers and pure Union, the Union player is the only one to regularly use A&G and it simply doesn't win him games on it's own. As a Masons player who prefers Honour over Hammer maybe I'm not giving the extra activation enough weight since I have access to it as well, and I recognize that maybe the true potential only really comes into play at the higher skill levels of the game, but I think that only minor tweaks need to be made to the pair if at all.

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Given the season 3 changes we know, does anyone have any other opinions?

I could see Greede getting dropped to 1VP and an Icy Sponge mark. It would promote his use as more than just a goalkeeper and activation gimmick.

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56 minutes ago, riffbw said:

Given the season 3 changes we know, does anyone have any other opinions?

I could see Greede getting dropped to 1VP and an Icy Sponge mark. It would promote his use as more than just a goalkeeper and activation gimmick.

An Icy Sponge would just promote him further as a gimmick that is left in the backfield because he can be left there unprotected and just keep on coming back to provide an extra Inf and activation if the enemy does focus on him

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30 minutes ago, Major_Fokker said:

The simplest method I would assume would be if you play A&G as you say, then model is classed as two players, yes, no?

 

I think it's more likely they'll have some sort of enforced Linked and lose the activation advantage entirely.

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1 hour ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

I think it's more likely they'll have some sort of enforced Linked and lose the activation advantage entirely.

I would second this. It makes sense to still maintain the model advantage, but lose the activation advantage. On the most recent Who Cares Who Wins podcast one of the developers indicates that the extra activation is something he likes as a Mason only feature. I definitely see A and G's double activation taken away.  I simply hate the look of the models and don't want to play them.

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A+G is waaaay over used. In fact in many situations they are a liability. And that activation advantage that 'breaks the game'? Masons do that already. However I suspect we will see changes because Greede doesn't work. Noone in their right mind uses him as an active player upfield because he will get murdered in 5 seconds with 4 health. So he skulks at the back - which is not how he seems in the fluff. 

I suspect either LINKED or even Greede becomes a Character Play - Averisse pays X and Greede jumps out and whacks someone remotely with his playbook. But most of all I just want Greede to be able to play rather than hide.

But the 'must take A+G' to win is a fallacy because people can't work around the last activation on the 1st turn problem - after that it becomes pretty academic. 

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I'm hoping unattach/attach becomes a (0) inf play. That way you can jump Greede out on Avarisse's go, have him pass the ball and jump back on to Avarisse (which makes fluff sense). Assume auto-linked will be a thing. Also would love if you could unattach him while avarisse has the ball and get greede to have the ball. I want to see him actually get used for his ball skills.. We shall see tho

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On 11/3/2016 at 7:04 AM, EpicChris said:

A+G is waaaay over used. In fact in many situations they are a liability. And that activation advantage that 'breaks the game'? Masons do that already. However I suspect we will see changes because Greede doesn't work. Noone in their right mind uses him as an active player upfield because he will get murdered in 5 seconds with 4 health. So he skulks at the back - which is not how he seems in the fluff. 

I suspect either LINKED or even Greede becomes a Character Play - Averisse pays X and Greede jumps out and whacks someone remotely with his playbook. But most of all I just want Greede to be able to play rather than hide.

But the 'must take A+G' to win is a fallacy because people can't work around the last activation on the 1st turn problem - after that it becomes pretty academic. 

I use him upfield all the time.  I've even scored 2 back to back goals with him in the same game....

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