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It looks like that the Spookes are on the rise at the moment. I think we all know Spookes are a strong team but now  they have won 2 World Championship Qualifiers in a row, will they be able to win OZ-land, too?  

What are your opinions, why do they have such a run at the moment ? (beside the fact that they had been played by good players). 

German Nationals ranking had been:  

1.Morticians (Obulus)
2. Butcher (I think with Fillet)
3. Fishermen
4.  Morticians
5.  Brewern.
 

 

Best regards Alex

 

p.s. I'll write my opinion together and post it here later

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At this point this topic has been practically beaten to death, not because there's nothing left to say about Obulus or the meta but because most people seem to have determined a specific opinion and stuck to it. Despite being one of the "offending" players that is a part of this rise of Morts, up until fairly recently I felt Obulus was in a fine spot in terms of power level. My older forum posts will show you as much if you actually wanna look them up. I now believe he is too strong for the game at the moment, and think that people claiming that this problem is limited to a specific meta, location, or set of players are not understanding Obulus or the game well enough. If you can play every team at an equal skill level (obviously a big "if"), Obulus will be your best choice for winning a Guild Ball tournament. Full stop. 

I don't know if you have this information or know where to get it, but I'd be interested to see what championship-9 the 1st and 4th-placing players in Germany were running. This has been posted before but the four that placed 1-4 at GenCon all ran:

Obulus, Dirge, Silence, Rage, Ghast, Mist, A&G, Casket

And then I ran Scalpel in my 9th slot (never played in the championship) and the other three players ran Cosset (never played in the championship). Ignoring the final slot, the first 8 players feel to me like they have basically no bad matchups, reasonably handle the downside of kicking off, and play a slow, intractable game that pushes dice math heavily in their favor. The necessary prevalence of A&G in tournaments doesn't hurt Obulus either, which is a big plus—he can get a lot of work out of Avarisse, and while that's not unique to Obulus there are a fair number of captains who don't really like having Avarisse on the team and being forced to take A&G is a strain on their team compositions. 

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I think - in short - control is the strongest medium in any game. At least it always felt like this. Morts heavily shine in this, I guess. If you think about Puppetmaster, it's basically Lure and Seduce in one, and effectively costs net 3 influence, so only the cost of Seduced. His legendary is basically a huge middle finger. I almost thought about modeling one as a goal post. Additionally he's pretty fast. He almost has the maneuverability of Shark, can play a decent football, controls where the ball is in the end. And after a kick, he can dodge, gaining even more movement. Combine that with some luck on plot cards and you gain up to 24" movement (though doesn't have the ball anymore after that, or already made a goal). That exceedes Shark. He is pretty defensive, having unpredictable movement with 2" reach and also shadowlike, and you can play teams with up to 15 influence. If that is effective I don't know, but it's possible. And that team above is already 14 influence with 7 activations. All that combined in one team, well... I guess I should feel bad now. Fuck...

Mh. No, false alarm. I still feel good. :P 

Well, at least I never could make Casket work. Just can't wrap my head around him. :D On the other hand, leaving Rage out... mh... I guess I should try that. xD

Honestly, I personally just love playing controling lists. It's kind of an OCD. Obulus's threat range (with his CP's) is basically the Pitch. Oh, you are important and close to the pitch edge? I just let you walk over there after shutting you out and a single push will do the job. You have the ball? Thanks, mine now. Oh, another unmasking will destroy three of your players? Let me just do a little Puppetmaster on Ghast... aaaaand they're gone. 
Yeah, it's assitry. If played correctly, they are the strongest Guild in the game. Full Slothtrop. Control overshadows everything. And that's their shtick. Good thing they have the highest learning curve. That's at least one thing.
What you can say about Obulus, is the following: The strength of the enemy team is yours, when you use Puppetmaster. 

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On 8/28/2016 at 7:42 AM, Nighty_s said:
  1. Morticians (Obulus)
  2. Butcher (I think with Fillet)
  3. Fishermen
  4. Morticians
  5. Brewers.

I love that the Morticians were not as dominant in that Qualifier as they were at GenCon.  They are undoubtedly a strong team, but I don't think they are, in general, overpowered relative to other teams.  They can't do damage with the speed of the Butchers or Brewers.  They can't score like the Fishermen or Alchemists.  They don't have the best defenses, or the fastest players.  My fear after GenCon was that people would want to see the whole team brought down a bit, where there isn't a lot of room for de-buffs.  Whenever a new player tries out Obulus, they are always surprised by how hard it is to get good damage with him, and how slowly he moves.  I personally think he is not quite as big of a pain as Midas is.   It's good to see more variety in the teams played at the highest levels, but I doubt Morticians will be poorly represented in the World Championship.

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Hey, Tim here, the Mortician lucky enough to win German Nationals.

I rank morticians as a team pretty high, but I played them simply because they are my only fully painted Team and because I think I can play them on auto pilot, after like 250 games with them. I would have loved to play alchemists, but they weren't painted, or Engineers but I would have missed mother too much.

In fact i did play another Roster:

Obulus, Scalpel, Dirge, Ghast, Avarisse and Greed, Mist , Silence, Bonesaw, Rage.

I personally only really struggle in the Fishermen matchup with Obulus, they are too fast to control. That's why I went for a Bonefish build. It worked pretty well, had to kick. Scalpel did so,walking forward 7", kicked sideways.  The fisher recovered the ball and kicked it right into the rest of the team, scalpel went in, dropped her legendary,tackled the ball and shot a goal in my first activation,putting the fisher under pressure with follow up goals. 

Personally I really like scalpel, but I'm in my comfort zone playing Obulus.

 

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I'm not sure the absolute power level of Obulus is the problem as someone has to be top, but rather the relative difference between Obulus and other captains when played to a high level.

Some of the synergies with players like Silence just amplify the difficulties an opponent faces.

I'm glad people are starting to use Scalpel as she is a lot of fun and very competitive just not in Obulus' league it seems.

I'm sure that if any changes are made it won't be a knee-jerk decision. I think there are meta differences that account for some of the perceptions but if he is 'broken' in one, it needs to be addressed.

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As a Morticians player, I don't think Morticians are OP, but Obulus might be and he completely overshadows Scalpel as he is a better scorer, killer and controller than she is.

That being said, any nerf to Obulus will completely destroy the competitiveness of the team as he is that much of a carry. The rest of the team barring Ghast and Silence is pretty mediocre or just plain bad which is why every competitive Morticians build has Union in it. Obulus + Mist to score or Obulus +A&G for more control or Obulus + Rage to beat face.

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Is it that Morts, and specifical Obulus, are over powered, or it is that they are unpleasant to play against? Denial is generally fairly horrible to deal with no matter what game you are playing?

Maybe Obulus does need some subtle tweek, but for me Silence being an auto include is a bigger problem for the team. It could appear to be deliberate as well, given that he's the only non-captain that brings 3 inf in a team that has the most 1 inf players and arguably the greediest the as well.

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I'm sure being unpleasant to play against is a part of it, but it's not the primary problem. Ob is just too flexible and difficult to pin down. I also think his learning curve is too steep and overcompensates on the power once you learn him - He's very difficult to figure out so he seems bad to start, but once you "get" him he rockets up in power level.

The first game I played with Morts was against an experienced Alchemist's player that top-8'd the GenCon tournament. I royally screwed up my first two turns and still was only a hair away from winning. I'm at best an intermediate player, so that tells me there's something wrong.

Personally, these are what I think the problems with Morts are:
- Obulus is too flexible and too hard to pin down. Reducing his total influence and/or cutting his melee range to 1" are simple changes that keep his toolbox without making him too much of a pain to deal with.
- Silence being a flat 3 Influence battery is too much, and makes him an auto-include in the otherwise relatively Influence-dry Mortician's teams. Maybe drop him to 2 with Tactical Advice (Dirge) or (Obulus)? Then at least your opponent can try to disrupt your Influence game via positioning.
- A&G isn't just a problem for Morts; they're pretty ubiquitous across most teams. There are plenty of other threads covering these two, but if I were doing something I might make them have a forced Linked ability, have them compete with Rookies for the seventh slot when they hit, or both. (I like the idea of a forced link for Rookies, too.)

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Tbh Silence generating 3 seems like a design of the team, I've never felt like I had enough influence to do whatever I want and still fill up Obulus. With Obulus on 4-5 influence you do get a lot of work out of your players but basically only a Puppetmaster/Confidence/Legendary or a few dodges/attacks. The point is that due to the colossal costs of puppet master, yet inherent strength of it, you have to force your enemy morticians team to use Obulus early, especially with players that generate a lot of momentum and damage easily. Players like Gutter who can still move and chain grab, Tapper can easily murder the world. Killing obulus is irrelevant, he's too smart, you have to just force him to make bad activations, you don't want to play into his game  by playing the regular game of guild ball.

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It's the team as a whole that is the problem.

Ob - Best captain in the game - Fillet being a close second.

Silence - Best midfielder

Mist - Best Striker

Ghast - Just yes

Dirge - very very useful and can come back and give away no more VP's

Rage - just fits the list perfectly. Obby can negate his only weakness and he ignores Unmasking etc.

A&G - a requirement at top level play - but they don't fit in some other guild lists very well, but they meld perfectly with Morts

13-15 Inf, when most teams max out at 13 and average 11-12.

When a player with the strengths of Casket is rarely taken, it just shows how strong they are overall.

Their only difficult match up is Shark fish.

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1 hour ago, MarkM said:

It's the team as a whole that is the problem.

Ob - Best captain in the game - Fillet being a close second.

Silence - Best midfielder

Mist - Best Striker

Ghast - Just yes

Dirge - very very useful and can come back and give away no more VP's

Rage - just fits the list perfectly. Obby can negate his only weakness and he ignores Unmasking etc.

A&G - a requirement at top level play - but they don't fit in some other guild lists very well, but they meld perfectly with Morts

13-15 Inf, when most teams max out at 13 and average 11-12.

When a player with the strengths of Casket is rarely taken, it just shows how strong they are overall.

Their only difficult match up is Shark fish.

Naaah, I don't feel like that. You can do that to every team.

Masons, the whole team is the problem.

Only Team with 2 armor, and the new mascot has 3.

Honour: Helps to get 9 activations at best times. Also responsive play

Monkey: Mascot with damage support AND tooled up. Also pretty fast.

Brick: Best Countercharger. Also only fat guy that gives 2 Inf and gets 3.

Mallet: Only Model in the game with 3" reach. Easy to get Singled out and KD. Damage is insane! You can't defend yourself against that. AND HE HAS FOOTBALL LEGEND. OMG!!1eleven!

Flint: Best striker, can also be teamed up with Mist.

Tower: Def and armor value of a Mason, has shutout, gives free def stances on walls and gets +2 tac on KD Models, and his Character Play causes a push on the enemy model! Whoa!

Chisel: Basically Cossett in good. And 2" reach. So much reach!

Hammer: Basically first turn kill, when you're not terribly whiffing the dice. Also his "ulti" isn't a legendary, but a heroic. Whoa! 

 

Sure, Ghast is good. But meh, which team doesn't have good models. I find it fairly balanced. To this day I have never beaten an Alchemist list. I just can't get around all those Clones and Glut Mass guys.

It's the whole Alchemist Team that is the problem!

Midas: ...

That's not really an argument, and it basically turns into a circle jerk when you start like that. It reminds me of 40k discussions. "But when I play thihiiiiiis..." "Yeah, but I can eeeeasily counter that with thiiihiiiiis..." "But this is wayyyyy tooooo stroooong man..."

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I can react effectively the same way I can react to every other character in the game for every team except Morticians. Masons I don't need to worry about my opponent messing with my positioning drastically. I don't need to worry about anything on their team that I can't account for.

With Morts that's not the case. I am at your mercy. You have control. I have to figure out plan after plan of what to do in case one of the 2-3 models get Puppetmastered away. I can't even punish your mistakes half the time because of the defensive tech of your captain!!

Do you know how frustrating that is? Playing the same game across 88% of your opponents but having to change it drastically for 12% of the game? Having to continuously burn brain cycles just to achieve parity? 

I don't think Morts are good game design space, because control will never, ever be balanced in a way that will leave both players empowered. That's their biggest problem, and it's a huge one when it comes to negative press about the game.
 

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Oh dear.

I think Morticians might be a bit over the top but to be honest,  the biggest part is playing a frustrating game. But to be fair, fishs that only interact with you to trade 1Influence for 1 Momentum rushing you down Round 2, Engineers in certain matchups,  Alchemists, Masons etc can be frustrating too.

If your opponent plays smart you should never be able to play 88% of your games the same way. No offense.  Honour with A&G and Flint,scoring 2 Goals Turn 1 have a totally different approach to the game compared to Ox Butcher.  I think they should tune down Obulus a tiny bit and reduce Silence to 2/4 Influence and we would be perfectly fine.  But in this case they should take a look at Blackheart, Coin, Midas etc.  And i didn't start talkin about buffing some: Harry(!!!) ,Graves,maybe Ballista  (i personally think he is fine) etc.

 

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32 minutes ago, Timmaay said:

Oh dear.

I think Morticians might be a bit over the top but to be honest,  the biggest part is playing a frustrating game. But to be fair, fishs that only interact with you to trade 1Influence for 1 Momentum rushing you down Round 2, Engineers in certain matchups,  Alchemists, Masons etc can be frustrating too.

If your opponent plays smart you should never be able to play 88% of your games the same way. No offense.  Honour with A&G and Flint,scoring 2 Goals Turn 1 have a totally different approach to the game compared to Ox Butcher.  I think they should tune down Obulus a tiny bit and reduce Silence to 2/4 Influence and we would be perfectly fine.  But in this case they should take a look at Blackheart, Coin, Midas etc.  And i didn't start talkin about buffing some: Harry(!!!) ,Graves,maybe Ballista  (i personally think he is fine) etc.

 

The tactics and counter-play for other teams and the innate power of stacking influence on a captain make it difficult to counter.

All the other captains you mentioned have counter-play that can be applied to game after game and the lessons you learn from each encounter grow your skill as a player almost immediately. Midas has 1 inch threat for his UM. Hammer has a large but static range and Brewer defenses. Fillet is uhh... well Fillet is in a similar boat to Obby except it's more her Steamrolling a character or two.

With Obulous the only lessons you get are an ass whooping until you start learning how to process the 3-4 pareto'd permutations required to react to him optimally.

 

I've always said that in other games you have to take your lumps for a solid year before you start seeing some consistent wins, I've been happy to say that Guild Ball that hasn't been the case... except for Morts! 

After some 20 games I still don't feel like it's a fair matchI'm considering to just counter-tech against Obby the best I can at this point.

 

Also I'll probably stop posting at this point I'm sure you all have heard what I have to say in some form or another from someone else ad nauseum.

I originally posted I thought it was from the RSS feed from Brewers/Hunters Guild forum. 

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Mh, that is not my experience. I would actually say if you don't need to change tactics for every team, I would call that bad game design. And as for now I actually had to change my tactics and roster composition against every team I played against as for now. It means variation, and variation in a game is always good. I can understand your opinion, Morts are frustrating to play against, but if your opponents don't change their tactics, you are actually in a privileged position of a meta where it is easy game. Ofcourse, our both opinions are just anecdotes and don't matter in the grand scheme. In my experience most tabletop games are not really well balanced. There's always something that is strongest. But in Guildball (again, my own anecdotal experience) strongest doesn't mean "always wins". I'm far away from winning every game. And the winners of the nationals are probably far away from it, too. It is awesome to see that it is so well balanced, and I think tuning Obby down is a bad thing to do. He carries the team with his abilities.

But what I could accept is not getting 1 Inf back after a successfull Puppetmaster. OR having Silence only generate 2/4, but for that I think Graves should generate 2/4, so it's evened out a bit.

Just to give you a few examples: Against Butchers, I need to actually waste my Puppetmaster on Ox, to make him move backwards, so I don't get into the range of his legendary and his "lads" have no possibilitie to gain the Owner AND attack me, which means I won't get the ball. Also, Brisket is a fucking monster. She can dish out insane damage together with Princess and the Support trait, while being a damn striker. (I love to play her though ^^)
Against Masons, I need to play around Flint an Mist, because every goal I make against them gives them the easy opportunity to make a slingshot goal.
I have yet to figure out what to do against Alchemists.
I could go on and on about this. I respect your opinion in this matter, though. Don't worry. 


Again, every Team has it's strengths and weaknesses, and I have yet to see another game that is as well balanced as Guildball. Ofcourse there is always room for improvement! :) 

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On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:36 AM, MarkM said:

It's the team as a whole that is the problem.

Ob - Best captain in the game - Fillet being a close second.

Silence - Best midfielder

Mist - Best Striker

Ghast - Just yes

Dirge - very very useful and can come back and give away no more VP's

Rage - just fits the list perfectly. Obby can negate his only weakness and he ignores Unmasking etc.

A&G - a requirement at top level play - but they don't fit in some other guild lists very well, but they meld perfectly with Morts

13-15 Inf, when most teams max out at 13 and average 11-12.

When a player with the strengths of Casket is rarely taken, it just shows how strong they are overall.

Their only difficult match up is Shark fish.

So tell me if this sounds crazy but it seems that part of the problem in terms of theme and maybe strength is the ability to load up half the team with non-guild players. I love that Union makes other options available but it feels a bit contrived and I wonder if maybe there should be a limit on non-guild players in your line up.  Not sure if that helps with the supposed "balance" concerns but to me it just feels more right.

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The game is balanced around Union players being an option. Some teams need them significantly more than others, but the adaptability in lineups they provide is important.

Midas alchemists play a lot (normally 4 in roster, 2-3 on pitch) of Union models and do very well.

Obulus morts play a middling (normally 3 in roster, 2 on pitch) number of Union models and do very well.

Fillet butchers play a low-ish (normally 2 in roster, 1-2 on pitch) number of Union models and do very well.

Shark fish play very few (normally 1-2 in roster, 0-1 on pitch) number of Union models and do very well.

 

Those are probably the four top teams currently and they all use Union differently. 

 

A&G are potentially an issue with their ubiquity, but Union models as a whole are a pretty important part of the game's balance. Without them, for example, Midas would be pretty unimpressive but Shark would still be as strong as he is already.

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This may seem a bit off-topic, but A&G really aren't that great of players--

I get the activation advantage, but why not just play better players and make those activations count?

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3 hours ago, iaipunk said:

This may seem a bit off-topic, but A&G really aren't that great of players--

I get the activation advantage, but why not just play better players and make those activations count?

Activation advantage makes your activations matter more—especially the last activation, which is gigantic. Being able to do a ton of stuff without the enemy responding between defensive stances/counter-attacks is huge for any team, and if your last activation ends with you winning momentum, you get consecutive activations. The strategical advantage there can effectively end a game immediately in more cases than you'd expect, particularly if you've got activation advantage over your opponent so you get first and last activation each turn. Specifically the first turn is most important here, since being able to hold your one or two big activations to as late as possible is the best way to take momentum for turn 2 initiative while hopefully still getting work done. 

Also, while Greede is definitely garbage and a liability, Avarisse is a star. His playbook is one of the best in the game, he's 20 HP with Tough Hide, and he's effectively a Big Guy who generates 2 INF. If he was alone (but still generated 2 INF), I at least would still take him often in Union, Butchers, and Morts just off the top of my head. He sets up for heavy hitters to hit even heavier like nobody's business, and he can do legit damage in the right circumstances himself. In Union, I'd probably take him even if he was only 1 INF, at least with Vet Rage. 

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1 hour ago, CurlyPaul said:

Remember when everyone thought A+G was just one of those gimmicky players with real competitive value? 

I really love how there have been phases in the popularity of models as we've all learnt how to play.

Was thinking that the other day. The errata helped but I think people are now more aware of the benefits of activation advantage.

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Agreed, it seems more to do with the way strategy has evolved from my point of view as well. I find this very interesting, I'd really like to know if the designers have been surprised by tactics dreamt up by the players. Must be an interesting process, building games.

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