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Vs Engineer Advice

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I have a league match coming up against engineers and was hoping for any advice since Ive never seen them yet.  I assume they are a 2 -2 type guild on average and that I need to be very aware of Pin Vice ability to stack damage quick ... other than that any tips on how to defend against as well as attack?

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Models with high DEF are great, since the Engineers can be reliant on small dicepool character plays. You definitely want Brisket, Fillet if you play her, and Boiler. Shank is pretty good since you need someone to get engagement and generate momentum so you can stand up anyone who's been knocked down.

Tenderizer also helps, giving them a lot more trouble scoring. Even if he eats some KDs and pushes they still need fives to score.

Putting the ball on Brisket and staying far away from any of them can be effective - if they get stuck in a straight up fight you're probably going to win.

Pin Vice has a damage but, but the Engineers in general have very little momentous damage, which means they can hit hard but not win the Mom race. Use some of yours to heal and you should be good - particularly since Pin Vice also damages friendly models when she uses her plays on them.

Try not to bother killing Hoist, he's absurdly durable and probably not worth the bother. Try not to let him steal Where'd They Go? from Shank, or Swift Stance from Boiler. Ground Pound from Tenderizer is pretty good too, but he's happy to stay well back. You will usually be fine to let him Replication after turn one, since it costs them so much influence for no immediate benefit.

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Thanks Gauntlet. Another question ... how often are you using swift stance and tough skin on your team?  Im still new to the game so I am not sure I am not just too caught up in trying to kill ... but I find after turn one I rarely use either and I am thinking I should use them more and maybe not try to straight up beat people down every turn.

 

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Depends a lot on who you're against and what you're planning to do.

If you're against a team which wants to get high results in their playbook (like Brewers), Swift Stance is great.

If you're against a team which has low TAC values (like Fishermen and Engineers), Tough Skin is great.

 

Swift Stance on models with 5+ defense, or 4+/1, basically makes them invulnerable for a turn.

It's very efficient if it's going to negate two or more attacks. That usually is when it's obvious who is going to be the target for a turn.

For example if you're facing down a well stacked up Obulus and the only model within 10" is Fillet, Swift Stance is suddenly really really good.

 

Tough Skin is basically always great unless your opponent doesn't have many activations left. On Ox's Legendary turn he may need all his influence to kill someone, but the rest of the time he's pretty happy to walk wherever his aura is needed and put Tough Skin / Butchery on people.

Since it costs twice as much influence, Swift Stance needs a bit more justification. It can be strong, though, since you can use it multiple times. If you activate first and put Swift Stance on both Boiler and Fillet, with all your other players far away, there are basically no good targets for your opponent's combat characters, particularly if they are reliant on high playbook results.

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So let me ask one more ... I typically start Ox, Boiler, Brisket, Princess, Shank, and Gutter.  For this matchup I was thinking of dropping Gutter for Tenderizer ... or Rage.  Would the tooled up be overkill?  Would the  Goalkeeping be too small an impact? Would the 2 inch reach continue to pay off for ganging up etc? Ive yet to play the goalie but it seems the impact to preventing goals and the potential KD abilities would be good in this case.

 

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Mate Keep Gutter (anatomical is always handy and with both gutter and boiler running with it is twice as nice), Run ox and boiler near her and giver her Tough skin and Swift stance get her pulling in your opponents players and damaging them with Shank coming in later in the turn to mop up. If you place your figs right you should be able to be getting max benefit from Ox's Aura and have the reach advantage. If they come in to attack, counter with shank and dodge out or with gutter for damage and healing herself. I find Pin vice will generally have one big turn where she may score but this often isolates her and she goes down quick.

Going back to one of your earlier questions regarding swift stance, and in this line up which produces 13 INF (if memory serves correctly). Really you can run Ox with one inf most turns to throw out a Tough skin his true value is his 4" aura, give Gutter 4 allways and for turns you are advancing give Boiler 4 and chuck out 2x Swift stance, that leaves you 4 to share between shank and brisket (turn one i would give two each or 3 shank and 1 brisket for a sprint).

Not sure how experienced your opponent is however I found when starting out against newer players (as new as me at the time) tough skin and swift stance on princess and dangling her out front is a great bait trap for setting up your killing field.

Also if goal scoring is not your aim vs this team you could drop brisket for rage/tenderiser but I don't think you really need to.

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Thanks masterkdog. Ive only got about 4 games under my belt so this all helps.  Ive tried to keep my team generally together.  Against goal scoring teams do you tend to hang between the goal and midfield?  When trying to spread out to protect the goal do you stick to 2 teams of 3 ... or am I just overthinking?  

So far I havent seen opponents that seem to put much thought into their placement but I have learned not looking to where you are for the next turn or two could be a critical mistake.

 

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So goaltending is the one part of my game I am ----- at. I have only just ordered Tenderiser for a Fillet team but he will not be a starter.

It often depends on who you are playing (team) that will change how you want to approach it. the Cogs don't really like you getting in their face but can be a little tough to pin down with guys like colossus knocking you down and pushing you etc.

In you lineup I would try and keep boiler and Gutter ahead with ox in behind, and the puppy safe but able to engage opponents before Boiler goes in. If you kick off, kick with Gutter and force them to get into her threat range pull then gang up on them and hit late with shank.

Keeping shank out of their melee range is key so he can go hunting later on. Also if you run tenderiser try position ox so that he will benefit from the aura in a counter charge situaion.

Generally if I am receving I find Shank starts wide, ox Gutter princess and boiler in the middle with Brisket on the other wing. It has been a while since I ran this lineup so memory is a little fuzzy.

Any way good luck man let us know how it turns out.

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Will do. Any reason you wouldn't also have Brisket up front to block charge lanes since she can "unpredictable movement" out of the way of most chargers?

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So I finally got my game in. I did go with Tenderizer and he paid off. Of course my opponent is still fairly new and made mistakes. He got aggressive and tried to turn a quick early score but got just too close to Tenderizer who was able to push Velocity out of range and prevent a sure goal ( 5 dice ) ... after that it got ugly and I beat him up good. Tenderizer didnt do much after that but I think mentally he messed with my opponents head. 

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Good to hear. I managed my first two games with Tenderiser last week and he did well for space saving. Also makes the allocation of Influence so much easier 6 to Fillet 4 to Shank and generally two to Brisket. Easy peasy.

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On August 22, 2016 at 0:03 PM, Gauntlet said:

Depends a lot on who you're against and what you're planning to do.

If you're against a team which wants to get high results in their playbook (like Brewers), Swift Stance is great.

If you're against a team which has low TAC values (like Fishermen and Engineers), Tough Skin is great.

 

Swift Stance on models with 5+ defense, or 4+/1, basically makes them invulnerable for a turn.

It's very efficient if it's going to negate two or more attacks. That usually is when it's obvious who is going to be the target for a turn.

For example if you're facing down a well stacked up Obulus and the only model within 10" is Fillet, Swift Stance is suddenly really really good.

 

Tough Skin is basically always great unless your opponent doesn't have many activations left. On Ox's Legendary turn he may need all his influence to kill someone, but the rest of the time he's pretty happy to walk wherever his aura is needed and put Tough Skin / Butchery on people.

Since it costs twice as much influence, Swift Stance needs a bit more justification. It can be strong, though, since you can use it multiple times. If you activate first and put Swift Stance on both Boiler and Fillet, with all your other players far away, there are basically no good targets for your opponent's combat characters, particularly if they are reliant on high playbook results.

 

I agree with @Gauntlet.

 

I also tend to use Swift Stance in situations where a lot of our players who can reasonably kill each other are within range of each other. If I really need a certain player to survive (let's say Fillet with 6 INF), but I need something to happen before she can activate (let's say, put Tooled Up on her), then my opening move will be to Swift Stance her. This helps buy time and deter people from attacking her.

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The only problem with using Swift Stance / Tooled Up to set up for Fillet is that it is pretty obvious what's happening and uses up a lot of your influence. Now this isn't usually much of a problem, but if things go slightly wrong it can be an issue because you don't have much in the way of backup to generate momentum with if Fillet needs it - for example, if she gets KDed and you have 9 influence (tooled up + swift stance + 6) tied up on Fillet, you might not be able to stand her back up again which is pretty awful. Odds of eating a KD are slim, but someone like Kraken, Corsair, Colossus or Tapper could get reasonable odds of cracking it.

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7 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

The only problem with using Swift Stance / Tooled Up to set up for Fillet is that it is pretty obvious what's happening and uses up a lot of your influence. Now this isn't usually much of a problem, but if things go slightly wrong it can be an issue because you don't have much in the way of backup to generate momentum with if Fillet needs it - for example, if she gets KDed and you have 9 influence (tooled up + swift stance + 6) tied up on Fillet, you might not be able to stand her back up again which is pretty awful. Odds of eating a KD are slim, but someone like Kraken, Corsair, Colossus or Tapper could get reasonable odds of cracking it.

 

So i have had many 2" players run at fillet and KD her thinking they are safe. Just forfit your move to stand up drop a bleed aoe on anyone easy enough to hit (better if it is the player who kd'd you) and use the dodge to get into melee. If all works out they are bleeding, and you are tooled up so you are doing pretty sweet damage on your 4 remaining inf and you can dogde in b2b if you damage them to prevent them countering and jumping away. Now they may counter and knock you down but you wll undoubtably have taken some momentum off your first attack, spend it to get up and swipe away again with 3 inf left you will put some hurt on.

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11 hours ago, masterkdog said:

So i have had many 2" players run at fillet and KD her thinking they are safe. Just forfit your move to stand up drop a bleed aoe on anyone easy enough to hit (better if it is the player who kd'd you) and use the dodge to get into melee. If all works out they are bleeding, and you are tooled up so you are doing pretty sweet damage on your 4 remaining inf and you can dogde in b2b if you damage them to prevent them countering and jumping away. Now they may counter and knock you down but you wll undoubtably have taken some momentum off your first attack, spend it to get up and swipe away again with 3 inf left you will put some hurt on.

It does work, but you only have one die on Pain Circle (since you're engaged) and if you don't hit with it you do absolutely nothing.

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I just played an eng tonight with, on their side: ratchet, salvo, mother, rage, velocity, and gutter. I ran fillet, brisket, a&g (not effectivly), princess, gutter, and shank. Fillet and brisket ripped them up. 

I mis-positioned shank so he wasn't of much use, but I ganged up on his gutter, rage, and velocity (brisket and velocity exchanged tackles for two rounds), bbutpicking one or two of their strikers and ganging up worked very well. 

And ratchets ranged attacks aren't as effective for the high def butchers 

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The season 1 captain is Ballista, not Ratchet.  We get savaged by his legendary play, and I'm not sure we can 6 inf kill a full health Ballista (18 health Tough Hide).  Combined with an easy KD model (Collosus or Avarisse, both with KDs on 2) instead of Velocity and you're going to have a much worse time.

Not that Fillet can't deal with him but it shouldn't be a roll.

I take:

Fillet, Princess, Boiler, Brisket, Shank, and Tenderizer for PV and AG for Ballista.

Boiler and Princess hang out until I can engage them both onto a model, then I win first and hopefully Boiler gets a 4 inf takeout.

Shank is our momentum maker to stand the team back up after obnoxious Salvo runs.

Brisket is a great striker and UM is great when all the enemy strikers are 1" without play dodges.

Tenderizer makes goals harder (and PV wants to 2+2 or 3 goal) and the Engineers don't have a great way to counter Rush Keeper.  Just don't get caught by a 'bait' activation where they trigger Rush Keeper after Tenderizer has gone, but before they're actually trying to score.  Cause then they're going to put out as many shots on the goal as they can until you've activated and moved Tenderizer back into position.

A+G versus Ballista because that team isn't a soccer team, it's an attrition team.

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If he is Bleeding and Fillet is tooled up then she does 18 with 6 attacks. She still kills him if he isn't bleeding because she can bloodrain him first attack and finish him with legendary.

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