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Sharktopus117

Area Expansion Concept Discussion: The Painted World of Ariamis

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EXPANSION DISCUSSION DISCLAIMER: This expansion discussion thread is by no means official and is made solely with the intent of considering the possibilities of what could be included in expansions for DS:BG based off of areas from within the Dark Souls games. This initial post posits only what I personally think would be the best fit for the area, working with the expansions released at the time of writing as an example. With what little information is available, please understand that anything and everything within this post can and will be subject to change, especially at the behest of the community. Take all speculation on as-of-yet unconfirmed concepts with a grain of salt. Thank you. 

The Painted World of Ariamis

The Painted World is honestly my favorite area in Dark Souls. I think a lot of people dislike it because it's pretty much a straight shot with a bunch of branching paths around it, but its  simplicity and design are just genius to me. Besides, the idea of an extra-dimensional dump/prison for everything the gods fear is something incredibly appealing to me, and I certainly felt as though it didn't disappoint. 

That said, when it comes to translating this area to the board game, I was surprised by how little there really was. Browsing the DS wiki for information, I distinctly had a feeling of "that's it?" So I got a bit creative here and there, and I've stretched some definitions a bit thin. I hope you don't mind. 

First off, tiles should reflect the cold desolate land. Some fire hazards would be nice, to represent the burning corpses we find there. A narrow bridge or two would also be great. More importantly though, is an idea I had for getting to the boss. In order to get there, you need to find the Small Doll item, somewhere in the level's treasure deck, and use that to access locked doors. I think this is the best way to bring this mechanic of actually getting into the Painted World into the game, and also provides a sense of direction for players. "Okay, I know I can't progress without finding this item. I better check every nook and cranny to find it so I can get to the boss." Would be a fun bit of impetus, I think. 

Enemies

3 Crow Demons: Quick on their feet and with a nasty grab attack, the Crow Demons I think are the bread and butter of the Painted World. A perfect enemy for transition to the BG. 

3 Engorged Hollows: Man these guys are a pain. Let's make them more of a pain, huh? Armed with a torch that deals fire damage, and killing them gives you Toxic. Fun enemies that are almost more of a hazard. Oh, and they can squirt Toxic at you too. 

2 Berenike Knights: Elite enemies of the area. Tall, tough, and with a big shield that can block all damage. Not to mention they hit pretty hard too. Reminiscent of the Anor Londo Sentinels. 

1 Hollow Phalanx: This is a weird one. I think for BG purpose, 1 Phalanx would be like, 5 figures? 6? I don't know, but it's a bunch of them arranged in a circle. Armed with spears and shields to poke you, but vulnerable from behind. 

3 Torch Hollows: Yeah, stretching it here. Just a hollow armed with a torch. Like their Engorged brothers only without the horrible nasty Toxic business. More importantly, they're a staple enemy of DS1 and I think they need to be represented. So there. 

Mini-Bosses

Undead Dragon Torso: The top-half of a dragon that's rotted and undead. Has powerful swipes, can vomit poison at you, and a crushing bite. His mini-boss arena should reflect his ingame one, where he is blocking a bridge. He cannot move, which means cheesing him with ranged attacks would probably be OP. I would add a few more direct ranged poison attacks to counter this, so you can't rely on him just helplessly pawing the air in front of him. 

Boss

Crossbreed Priscilla: Touch Fluffy Tail. 

But in all seriousness, Priscilla is a HARD one to make. Namely because she turns invisible, and that just doesn't work in a BG. At all, really. Like, if anybody has any ideas for this, please tell me, because I'm at a loss. But aside from that, I'd say Priscilla would be a great boss. The problem is that, taking away her Invisibility, she only has three attacks - single scythe slash, double scythe slash, and fairy dust. So you'd have to make up a bunch, so I'm taking a few liberties here. Basically, more interesting Scythe attacks. Maybe reference Gehrman from Bloodborne for ideas? Although she could have her fairy dust off the bat, her first phase is primarily melee focused. 

Her heat-up phase adds more devastating scythe combos, as well as the Lifehunt effect of her scythe, allowing her to regen health (this will not pull her out of heat-up phase). She can also get an improved fairy dust that deals more damage and applies Frostbite(?). I think that would be a fitting idea, given how cold her area is. That's pretty much all I got though. I think this, above all other DS1 areas, is one that requires a lot of community brainstorming to get right. 

 

That's about it for this expansion, but if you think I missed something or just have a better idea than I do for any character, enemy, or situation, please tell me! This isn't so much my expansion idea as it is the community's. Stay tuned for another area expansion discussion thread. 

The next thread will be: The Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants.

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I will write a longer in depth response about this tomorrow, since It will be a very interesting discussion I belive (Or seriously hope). ^^
But for now i'll leave you with a little response on mobs: Don't forget the Painting Guardians! The may not "belong" in the area itself, but they have strong enough ties to the expansion that they should not be ignored. The area is fantastic, but as you say, there is a bit of a limited number of enemies to bring up.

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Just now, IndustrialDefect said:

I will write a longer in depth response about this tomorrow, since It will be a very interesting discussion I belive (Or seriously hope). ^^
But for now i'll leave you with a little response on mobs: Don't forget the Painting Guardians! The may not "belong" in the area itself, but they have strong enough ties to the expansion that they should not be ignored. The area is fantastic, but as you say, there is a bit of a limited number of enemies to bring up.

Oh my god, I totally remembered the Painting Guardians when I was initially brainstorming this area, and then totally forgot them while I made this post. Thanks for the reminder. 

Plus, they could drop some SWEET loot. Which reminds me, Priscilla would probably drop the Lifehunt Scythe or Priscilla's Dagger when killed. 

 

I keep forgetting to add boss drops to these ;_; 

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Hhhhhhhhhh, I know I've done this with you about Deacons of the Deep...
But, I fear that Priscilla as a boss might be too hard to implement. .H.
My issue with her is, as iconic and intimidating as she may be as a first encounter, I don't see much point in having a Priscilla figure where she's invisible.
Unless you can implement a mechanic which allows you to utilise her figure on the tile while she's invisible, it will be very hard for the player to find and hit her without some form of rule during a fight.

However, if you can put forward an idea which makes logical sense in regards to making the most out of her boss fight on a board game, then fair enough.

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1 minute ago, LoreFromAstora said:

Hhhhhhhhhh, I know I've done this with you about Deacons of the Deep...
But, I fear that Priscilla as a boss might be too hard to implement. .H.
My issue with her is, as iconic and intimidating as she may be as a first encounter, I don't see much point in having a Priscilla figure where she's invisible.
Unless you can implement a mechanic which allows you to utilise her figure on the tile while she's invisible, it will be very hard for the player to find and hit her without some form of rule during a fight.

However, if you can put forward an idea which makes logical sense in regards to making the most out of her boss fight on a board game, then fair enough.

Yeah, I'm aware that her invisibilty is nigh-impossible. That's why, outside of just dropping her entirely, the only option for making her boss fight viable would be to make new stuff. 

Unless, of course, somebody figures out how to make the invisibilty viable. Then we're set. 

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2 minutes ago, Sharktopus117 said:

Yeah, I'm aware that her invisibilty is nigh-impossible. That's why, outside of just dropping her entirely, the only option for making her boss fight viable would be to make new stuff. 

Unless, of course, somebody figures out how to make the invisibilty viable. Then we're set. 

Basically, if you invite a magician who can make things disappear and reappear, you're set. ;3

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The only way to make her viable probably is to not be faithful to the game. Maybe a mechanic that increase the chance to miss agaisnt Priscille while she is "invisible" representing that players attack her thinking that she is in that place while she really isn´t.... (pretty unimaginative, I know)

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...
Y'know what? No, I'm not gonna shatter yer dreams again Deacon.
We'll make this work, I promise. We will make the best Priscilla mechanic ever, or my name isn't LoreFromAstora...which it isn't...or is it? >:3

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I don't see why you can't handle the invisibility using the usual boss cards. The only way I could think of getting it to work though is through clever node use coupled with clever use of the agro token. There may need to be an element of RNG introduced though to get that sort of thing to work in a board game.

 

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I have an idea i could try to show since i would suck and confuse trying to explain it through text, but yes it needs separate mechanics and a few tokens but it's an idea based on my old idea people directly called perfect pinwheel/crystal sage mechanics. Hmm I'll try to make a mock up. But can't promise it'll be finished today.

UPDATE: <.< I kind of got very over ambitious. I'm making a boss tile, 3 behaviour cards and tokens in photoshop. Will take photos later and return. Cheers from a madman!

Edited by IndustrialDefect
Madness update

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Hi, long time lurker, first time poster :P

just wanted to weigh in, now I've never played beyond the first 2 bosses in DS1, so I'm not familiar with Priscille, but if you are looking for an invisibility mechanic (I'm assuming it's temporary and not always on?) why not have something like this:

Flip card, revealed as invisibility.

Remove model from board, when playing the next card attack as if Priscille was in a nearby node with agro target. Once complete return Priscille to the central node.

In a way this is basically giving her a free attack, and likewise can't be attacked for 1 turn (maybe 2).

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3 hours ago, IndustrialDefect said:

I have an idea i could try to show since i would suck and confuse trying to explain it through text, but yes it needs separate mechanics and a few tokens but it's an idea based on my old idea people directly called perfect pinwheel/crystal sage mechanics. Hmm I'll try to make a mock up. But can't promise it'll be finished today.

UPDATE: <.< I kind of got very over ambitious. I'm making a boss tile, 3 behaviour cards and tokens in photoshop. Will take photos later and return. Cheers from a madman!

Mad, but with purpose. Don't you dare go hollow. ;)

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2 hours ago, Dr Loxley said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster :P

just wanted to weigh in, now I've never played beyond the first 2 bosses in DS1, so I'm not familiar with Priscille, but if you are looking for an invisibility mechanic (I'm assuming it's temporary and not always on?) why not have something like this:

Flip card, revealed as invisibility.

Remove model from board, when playing the next card attack as if Priscille was in a nearby node with agro target. Once complete return Priscille to the central node.

In a way this is basically giving her a free attack, and likewise can't be attacked for 1 turn (maybe 2).

That could work!

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Alright, so I've begun work on the tile, which basically means I am making the tile template for the community, with the placeholder nodes for now. So I might not be able to finish all things today as I hoped. But I'll get it done as soon as possible. x)

 

3 hours ago, Dr Loxley said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster :P

just wanted to weigh in, now I've never played beyond the first 2 bosses in DS1, so I'm not familiar with Priscille, but if you are looking for an invisibility mechanic (I'm assuming it's temporary and not always on?) why not have something like this:

Flip card, revealed as invisibility.

Remove model from board, when playing the next card attack as if Priscille was in a nearby node with agro target. Once complete return Priscille to the central node.

In a way this is basically giving her a free attack, and likewise can't be attacked for 1 turn (maybe 2).

@Dr Loxley, I've heard this before and I liked it, but the sad thing is that reminds me more of teleportation rather than invisibility. But it is one of the better ways to deal with it. I will include it in my photo demos, to show "in game" how it could look like. 

 

 

Guys, if you have any other "rules/mechanics", ideas or concepts on how to possibly run Priscilla, try to explain it and I'll see if I can make a photo demo. It is much easier to get a grip on a concept if you can see it instead of hear it. What sounds bad in text might actually look or work well when used.

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6 hours ago, Dr Loxley said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster :P

just wanted to weigh in, now I've never played beyond the first 2 bosses in DS1, so I'm not familiar with Priscille, but if you are looking for an invisibility mechanic (I'm assuming it's temporary and not always on?) why not have something like this:

Flip card, revealed as invisibility.

Remove model from board, when playing the next card attack as if Priscille was in a nearby node with agro target. Once complete return Priscille to the central node.

In a way this is basically giving her a free attack, and likewise can't be attacked for 1 turn (maybe 2).

This is probably the best solution so far, although there may yet be another one. 

It's dawned on me that, if this were a more D&D style game with a DM, this wouldn't be a problem because the DM would be able to know and decide where Priscilla is and the players wouldn't. So, in that sense, at least, Priscilla would work fine. Don't think many people are going to try and make DM-driven modes, though, given how well-automated the game currently is. 

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3 hours ago, IndustrialDefect said:

Guys, if you have any other "rules/mechanics", ideas or concepts on how to possibly run Priscilla, try to explain it and I'll see if I can make a photo demo. It is much easier to get a grip on a concept if you can see it instead of hear it. What sounds bad in text might actually look or work well when used.

Hmmm... I was thinking about Priscilla when I wrote the post about hard-to-implement bosses, but I decided to left her out of that category because she just needs an innovative idea rather than lots of miniatures (Or whatever needs Bed of Chaos). As for Prissy, I have an idea. Is not entirely original, but I think I can borrow a few things from others...

This is just an sketch, so don't freak out. First of all, she needs her own special tile with twice the number of nodes, half for the players (They work as usual nodes) and half for Priscilla (She can't enter the players nodes and vice versa). When an invisibility card appears, Priscilla is retired and you put a footprint token on every adjacent Prissy-node. Only one of those tokens is the actual position of Priscilla, the other ones are just for confusing players. I think that an image is worth a thousand words, so...

Prissy_1.png

Yeah, my skills with MS Paint are legendary... Priscilla is, obviously, Prissy, the Darksign represents the empty Prissy-nodes and the footprints are the tokens.

If anyone spends energy on attacking footprints, flip the token. If it was a "fake" footprint nothing happens, but if it was the "real" one you have to do something like this: First, roll the damage as usual, then put one damaged counter on the Priscilla mini outside the board; if she has three (Or four, or five, IDK) damaged counters, grab all the tokens and return the miniature to the board; if not, spread again the footprint counters as if Priscilla was at that node. Yes, if players hit Prissy she moves, this is for prevent ganking and giving her a chance to cause more confusion.

While she is invisible, the AI deck is "frozen". When the boss is going to do something, instead of drawing cards flip the footprints and attack all the players near the "true" footprint token, then spread the tokens again and continue with the next player. Of course, this needs a clever distribution of both players and Prissy-nodes, and the later are needed because: 1) They let Fluffytail move freely across the board, so no bodyblock and 2) Players can't block the apparition of footprints.

I don't know if I'm expressing clearly. Maybe I need more painfully drawn pictures...

 

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@Trusty Patches, can I be a little angry at you.. Just a little? You pretty much took my idea that I was going to show and improved on it in so many aspects.
Making a double node system for invisibility, very smart. A little messy, on the tile if the nodes are not done very nicely to be visible but discrete. Just a few questions to see if I am still completely stupid, when she has been hit, the true invisibility token, enough so that her invisibility disappears, how long until she can put it up again?
Is it an action listed on her behaviour card? Did I understand you right that she sweeps with her scythe once every turn as long as she is invisible, flipping all tokens to see which was the right one, before flipping over the tokens and shuffling them again? And lastly, does the tokens move or are they standing still in those "invisibility nodes"?

This is was what i had planned. That the tokens, 3 which I thought were enough, moves one step closer in unison toward the character who holds the aggro token. When 2 of 3 tokens would be "connecting" or even being on the same node, she would perform an attack, thus drawing a card from the encounter deck. Her invisibility would be dropped until next time a behaviour card promted her again to do so. While invisible, 3 points of damage in one or several hits on her would be enough for her to drop the invisibility until a behaviour card prompted her to become invisible again.

Both our ideas are a bit convoluted, but I like yours a bit better than mine, even if the fight becomes more of a guessing game than actual fight. Which is likely the case no matter what Invisibility mechanic we come up with.
 

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Jolly co-operation at it's finest guys. Brings a tear to my eye. ;v;

Just to reinforce your idea, I fought with Priscilla a little while back (Like a week or 2 ago) and found that even though I was attacking where her footprints were, I wasn't hitting my intended target. So the idea that hitting a fake footprint desla no damage is, in my opinion, quite reflective of the actual fight.
Now that could of been because I'm a bad player (insert casul name calling below), but I would actually say both ideas combined is the closest I've seen to a working mechanic.

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7 minutes ago, LoreFromAstora said:

Jolly co-operation at it's finest guys. Brings a tear to my eye. ;v;

Just to reinforce your idea, I fought with Priscilla a little while back (Like a week or 2 ago) and found that even though I was attacking where her footprints were, I wasn't hitting my intended target. So the idea that hitting a fake footprint desla no damage is, in my opinion, quite reflective of the actual fight.
Now that could of been because I'm a bad player (insert casul name calling below), but I would actually say both ideas combined is the closest I've seen to a working mechanic.

I agree, the footprints do leave some confusion to be had and a misplaced hitbox from time to time. But yeah, I like both, Patches more so than my own, but still the ideas are good, but many say they don't want this (Add-on mechanics/Fanmade rules/Campaign mode,etc) to get too convoluted, since they wish for it more to be a beer and snacks game. Which in itself is quite humorous since in the beginning everyone was hoping it would be deeper with more mechanics. So the "party" seems split between two camps: -Advanced rules with much more of everything- and -Quick and easier rules with "less depth", for a more relaxed game-.

But the basic idea hit or miss token system is the same I said during the KS campaign, just "Hmm, use tokens to see if it is empty space or Pris", but the opinion was that it felt more fitting for someone like Pinwheel, figuring out which of the three is the true one. But now the ideas have taken more shape, again, Patches especially.

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I think the only concern with the token system is that, if Priscilla has a lot of health and can turn invisible frequently, it would make the fight really tedious and boring. Especially since it ends up pretty much being luck if you hit her or not. So I would reduce the amount of tokens to 4 instead of 6, just to make the chances of hitting her a bit better, and make her health relatively low for a boss. Seems the best way to balance her out. 

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2 hours ago, Sharktopus117 said:

I think the only concern with the token system is that, if Priscilla has a lot of health and can turn invisible frequently, it would make the fight really tedious and boring. Especially since it ends up pretty much being luck if you hit her or not. So I would reduce the amount of tokens to 4 instead of 6, just to make the chances of hitting her a bit better, and make her health relatively low for a boss. Seems the best way to balance her out. 

Yeah, the amount of tokens and health would be a very important balance factor not only for difficulty but also fun factor. 4 is probably a good in between because the node system can still be made symmetrical if that would be the case. But wow, she could be one lethal boss. She also causes bleed afterall.

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7 minutes ago, Artorias The Abysswalker said:

Something tells me I shouldn't trust Patches, but I'll support his idea.

 

@IndustrialDefect Have you ever finished what you were doing in that thing called photoshop?
I'd like to see it too.

I wish, I am a perfectionist with my work and wanted the tile to be very nice, since I am trying to make a reproduction of Priscillas boss area, within the confines of the normal 30x30cm tile. And I've had other things to do aswell, laundry and such. But you guys will see soon enough. The tile atleast. Cards are much faster since I already have that template done since back early in the Kickstarter.

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1 minute ago, IndustrialDefect said:

I wish, I am a perfectionist with my work and wanted the tile to be very nice, since I am trying to make a reproduction of Priscillas boss area, within the confines of the normal 30x30cm tile. And I've had other things to do aswell, laundry and such. But you guys will see soon enough. The tile atleast. Cards are much faster since I already have that template done since back early in the Kickstarter.

I love this. XD The polite way if saying 'Um guys, I have I life, I don't play Dark Souls all day.'

Nah, I jest.

Not that you have to, but have you ever considered a bigger tile board? Just in case you needed more nodes or design.

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