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Banjulhu

Veteran Siren and Tentacles

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So we have stats for a Vet Siren and Tentacles

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I'm liking the looks of Tentacles although I still think the new blind is a waste of time given its low hit chance and once per turn limit (if only it was triggered with a :P:). Everything else I like. It may be slow, but tag along lets us speed it up, a 2/6 kick means it can pass and shoot in a pinch, 2" melee zone  on a 40mm base and decent defensive syats and close control to keep hold of the ball. Simply better than Salt.

Siren on the otherhand feels like a total downgrade. Dread Gaze has applications but I dont feel it is as good as lure and seduced (plus it's largely reliant on keeping the Fish quite close together, something I have never been keen on), no more 2" melee, Shadow Like is nice but at 7"/9" Move it feels like overkill. Base defense is still just ok and the only way to boost it is to be near a model who cant keep up with her and is often not in most teams due to his 1 inf. She has been upped to Tac 4 but the playbook is still a little naff and escaping fate is another one of those abilities that only makes loosing feel a little less horrible rather than something to enable victory.

She just feels too mixed up, she needs to be in a fight to get the best out of Dead Gaze, but she is a push over when in a fight, but has a get out of death free card for when she looses the fight but then also has tools escape a fight in a 2nd collunm :><: and shadow like. Cant say I'm too impressed with her on first glances, maybe my opion will change but there will always be the addendum of "...but her original version has Seduced".

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I totally agree on your final sentence "...but her original version has Seduced"

This morning I was wondering who could be our veteran player.  I was persuaded that Angel would be our vet, not Siren. Siren is very different to all others in the team and had Seduced which is my favorite way to recover a ball. Really useful. I like Dread Gaze and Shadow Like but 1' melée pfff and loosing Seduction it's something that I'm not prepared for.

On the other hand Tentacles is a very good change for Salt. I'm so sorry for the sweetie Salt but Tentacles is better, no doubt. Only problem is that I will loose the buffer for Angel, being 5+ DEF and adding Nimble made her hard to kill.

 

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I will still be using Salt a lot - the ball retrevial is better for me than having a 6th player with 2" melee and tentacles definitely needs influence to do much more useful than have a melee range. I've been getting good use out of new blind recently though, so it's a useful tool to have. If you're playing Angel though, I think you still want Salt.

Siren is great, especially for Corsair lists that do like to bunch up, and have a fight. She isn't exactly squishy either, particularly if you have Kraken - with Dread gaze activated, she's similar to DEF 5+ / ARM 2 which is a terrifying stat line to hurt... It's a hard choice to lose original Siren though, who I still love for her pure utility...

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34 minutes ago, FearLord said:

I will still be using Salt a lot - the ball retrevial is better for me than having a 6th player with 2" melee and tentacles definitely needs influence to do much more useful than have a melee range. I've been getting good use out of new blind recently though, so it's a useful tool to have. If you're playing Angel though, I think you still want Salt.

Siren is great, especially for Corsair lists that do like to bunch up, and have a fight. She isn't exactly squishy either, particularly if you have Kraken - with Dread gaze activated, she's similar to DEF 5+ / ARM 2 which is a terrifying stat line to hurt... It's a hard choice to lose original Siren though, who I still love for her pure utility...

Agreed, re: Siren. Starting a turn by effectively blinding an ~8" circle and putting out some damage is not bad. She's quite capable as a scorer, too. She is possibly the most different of the Vets in terms of use, without racking my brain too hard for other comparisons, which is great, imo.

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I've not bothered having Salt near Angel for some time now, I prefer just using Nimble and a bit of cover to keep her safe from normal attacks and defensive stance in the case of charges as bringing up Salt to be in 4" of Angel often just resulted in Salt being taken out just before the end of a turn.

The near Kraken bit is one of my issues with Vet Siren, even in a Corsair team he is a hard sell.

A Def 5+ Arm 2 equivalent may be hard to overcome but she will never always be like that which is the worry because when she is not buffed she is an easy target.

For me the real killer though is that Dread Gaze's 4" Aura is just too easy for an opponent to bypass (it would have been much better if it was attacks against friendly models in the aura suffer -2 Tac) and without dead gaze she has nothing else to offer that is not already present on better models.

Personally I think she will end up being too corner case to take especially in tournament settings where you can only have one version in the roster. I know that vet models are not meant to be better than their originals but they should at least have the same level of appeal.

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4 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I've not bothered having Salt near Angel for some time now, I prefer just using Nimble and a bit of cover to keep her safe from normal attacks and defensive stance in the case of charges as bringing up Salt to be in 4" of Angel often just resulted in Salt being taken out just before the end of a turn.

The near Kraken bit is one of my issues with Vet Siren, even in a Corsair team he is a hard sell.

A Def 5+ Arm 2 equivalent may be hard to overcome but she will never always be like that which is the worry because when she is not buffed she is an easy target.

For me the real killer though is that Dread Gaze's 4" Aura is just too easy for an opponent to bypass (it would have been much better if it was attacks against friendly models in the aura suffer -2 Tac) and without dead gaze she has nothing else to offer that is not already present on better models.

Personally I think she will end up being too corner case to take especially in tournament settings where you can only have one version in the roster. I know that vet models are not meant to be better than their originals but they should at least have the same level of appeal.

I agree that the def 5+ isn't always possible, but it's a reason to include them both (I actually prefer to use Kraken with Shark, but Incould see a Corsair list that made use of both of them). 

A 4" aura is actually a pretty big area, and it's not going to be that easy to attack from outside of, and even with only DEF 4+, the effective 2 ARM will make her very annoying. She also isn't that easy to deal with before putting it up. If you activate first and try to kill her, you need to be able to deal with Escaping Fate, otherwise you gain nothing. So unless you started in melee with her, or have some ranged damage, you can't kill her in one activation, which gives her the opportunity to activate the aura and heal - a 4" dodge can cover a big distance.

I really like her - very different, but still useful. Also, who says you can't have both versions of a character in your tournament line up? I haven't heard anything to that effect...

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3 minutes ago, FearLord said:

I agree that the def 5+ isn't always possible, but it's a reason to include them both (I actually prefer to use Kraken with Shark, but Incould see a Corsair list that made use of both of them). 

A 4" aura is actually a pretty big area, and it's not going to be that easy to attack from outside of, and even with only DEF 4+, the effective 2 ARM will make her very annoying. She also isn't that easy to deal with before putting it up. If you activate first and try to kill her, you need to be able to deal with Escaping Fate, otherwise you gain nothing. So unless you started in melee with her, or have some ranged damage, you can't kill her in one activation, which gives her the opportunity to activate the aura and heal - a 4" dodge can cover a big distance.

I really like her - very different, but still useful. Also, who says you can't have both versions of a character in your tournament line up? I haven't heard anything to that effect...

I play with Blackheart and my usual opponent uses Tapper a lot, it's possible we have quite skewed playstyles due to a lot of commanding aura and learing to avoid it. We've certainly skewed to using a lot of 2" melee models to reach into auras rather than having to enter it. That said the power or 2" melee is something I'm still trying to work out, cant tell if I have warmachine and prefered play tactics making strong biases take effect or if it is just that good to have.

I may just be going off the deep end with the tournament thing and mixing various systems together in my head but I was sure guild ball's said one of each player in a given list

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2 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I play with Blackheart and my usual opponent uses Tapper a lot, it's possible we have quite skewed playstyles due to a lot of commanding aura and learing to avoid it. We've certainly skewed to using a lot of 2" melee models to reach into auras rather than having to enter it. That said the power or 2" melee is something I'm still trying to work out, cant tell if I have warmachine and prefered play tactics making strong biases take effect or if it is just that good to have.

I may just be going off the deep end with the tournament thing and mixing various systems together in my head but I was sure guild ball's said one of each player in a given list

2" melee is definitely a very strong ability, but I think with Fishermen you can afford one or 2 players without it, because everyone else is bringing it to the party. One of the big reasons it's good for Fishermen is getting in and out of melee and Vet Siren has her own options for dealing with that. Regular Siren is great though, no argument. I just think it's going to be possible to make a really interesting team with Vet Siren as well though.

Love the Art as well though - hope the model looks that awesome!

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6 minutes ago, FearLord said:

I just think it's going to be possible to make a really interesting team with Vet Siren as well though.

I'm dubious about that but like I said in the opening post my opinion may change with time... but her original version has Seduced

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I'm going to have to do some playtesting first. For me there's a lot to like on both cards, but also quite a bit that's going in the red column. Tentacles can get stuff done, I'm perfectly ok with Blind as a shot to nothing option. However, he's going to need Inf to get anything done and if nothing else not needing any Inf was Salt's main quality. Vet Siren is like the opposite of regular Siren: she went from all about affecting your opponent's positioning with her plays and with Beautiful to dominating the small space around her. I think I might like her with Corsair, but I'm not sure if I can get the activation order quite right in such a team. We'll see when I have more time for playing again.

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30 minutes ago, Pangur Ban said:

I'm going to have to do some playtesting first. For me there's a lot to like on both cards, but also quite a bit that's going in the red column. Tentacles can get stuff done, I'm perfectly ok with Blind as a shot to nothing option. However, he's going to need Inf to get anything done and if nothing else not needing any Inf was Salt's main quality. Vet Siren is like the opposite of regular Siren: she went from all about affecting your opponent's positioning with her plays and with Beautiful to dominating the small space around her. I think I might like her with Corsair, but I'm not sure if I can get the activation order quite right in such a team. We'll see when I have more time for playing again.

The activation order is troubling me as well, one of the team's great strengths to date has been their quite loose actiavtion requirements the new Siren kicks that plan out of the window a little and forces you to activate her early and put her in the right spot.

Tentacles has a surprising ammound of movement to it. Tag along makes it effectively an 8/10 when needed and with close control and achievable pushes in the playbook it makes a very good ball collector and holder rather than Salt's collection and hope not to die role.

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I too am quite surprised Angel didn't get the Veteran spot.
Obviously vSiren is drastically different from her earlier version. At first glance she looked terrible but the more I think about it, the better it gets. The debuff is very strong in a large area, her mobility is unparalleled , and Escaping Fate can be infuriating for the opponent if played well. One to think about for sure. She's gone from one type of support to another.

Tentacles is 2/6" KICK. lolz. Momentous Tackle on 1. 9 boxes is also wierd. Hope Salt gets a little buff because even in completely different roles, this thing just seems better.

Between Corsair, vSiren and Tentacles, this Season certainly ups the Fish midfield game.

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My thoughts:

Tentacles is great. Sure it's pretty slow, but tag along mitigates that. Blind is good. 40mm base with 2" melee is great, and makes him better at sitting in front of the goal doing nothing like Salt usually does anyways. Momentous tackle on 1 makes fora  great roadblock, and I can actually see putting influence on Tentacles to try to do something worthwhile. Not to mention that a 2/6" kick means that he's as good at kicking as OBULUS. If you can hitch a ride over a couple turns then you can sit in a place where you can collect a kick out or tackle the retriever, then walk out of a melee zone and score from a reasonable distance. Salt can score from a long way but good luck getting the ball.

At first blush I didn't like Siren. 1" melee is a huge downgrade. That being said just based on her card 2" would have been very good. I think she's going to be very hard to kill. I can see using her to more forward than her previous incarnation. A 9" wide bubble of -2 Tac is very good, but she's going to chew through momentum taking defensive stance a lot I'd imagine. Lure/Seduced are great, but also I never feel like I'm hurting without them. I think she's got a place in the team but will need some time to figure out where that stands. After some more testing I think Kraken sucks so that DEF buff is never going to be a factor alas.

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1 hour ago, Grenoir said:

I wonder if the loss of Beautiful will be refered to in her fluff - too many 'Taken Outs' to the face?

She also loses Charmed. I think it's going to be explained as looking more and more like a sea witchy not quite human unnatural being and less like an eerily beautiful human woman.

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Activation order might be a thing, but she can trigger Dread gaze off a counter attack... Not always going to work, but something to keep in mind.

Escaping Fate is really good by the way - 4" dodge and remove all conditions. She can reliably turn getting beaten up into a 15" move if she activates straight after, which is not insignificant...

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Activation order might be a thing, but she can trigger Dread gaze off a counter attack... Not always going to work, but something to keep in mind.

Escaping Fate is really good by the way - 4" dodge and remove all conditions. She can reliably turn getting beaten up into a 15" move if she activates straight after, which is not insignificant...

Very valid point and if you keep her by Kraken for the buff he could possibly keep anything around at bay until the next turn when she can do it all over again. 

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Veteran Siren has a pretty nice playbook and good mobility, but unlike regular Siren she doesn't have straightforward abilities that force your opponent's hand. She's going to be harder to take out than most, but she's not some Ghast-like tank in the middle of the pitch either (certainly not without Kraken). Dread Gaze lets her protect others as well, but it's no Counter Charge. She's got a Tackle, but it's not Momentous. Her melee zone got cut back to 1" and she still doesn't have access to Knockdown (so keeping models in the Gaze will be difficult), but getting a Momentous Dodge + Push + Dread Gaze and a Momentous 2 damage + Dread Gaze is an improvement. She can still score, obviously.

Veteran Siren is about being able to do quite a few different things, possibly several per activation, but none as directly effective as regular Siren's CPs. I'm not dismissing that as useless, but the players that are generally considered strong tend to fall in the latter category as far as I can tell. I think she's going to be difficult to get great use out of, also because of the early activation requirement and because being hard to take out isn't useful in this game unless it's coupled with being a credible threat in some way as well.

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That may be the deal breaker with her in a lot of lists. Dread Gaze may be good but it feels like it will require more hard work for a less impactful effect than pSiren has

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It's another player with momentous damage, combined with a short playbook - her damage potential is pretty decent on a charge / with ganging up, and she's capable of putting out damage while putting up Dread Gaze...

Shes kind Friday like in terms of her damage profile, although obviously without access to the damage buffs Friday can get from Spigot / Esters.

She has the same goal threat range that Greyscales has, although her dodge is less flexible, but free to use.

A list like:

Corsair, Tentacles, Kraken, Vet Siren, Gutter, Sakana could be interesting - you have a bit of flexibility with the last player, but Jac or Greyscales could be useful depending on your preference.

You use Corsair, Gutter and Kraken to Harpoon people into a cage or 2" melee models. Siren provides a protective aura while she, Gutter and Corsair beat people to death and pull in more people. Siren and Sakana look for a chance to break away and score to close the game out.

What you obviously miss here is Lure from regular Siren as a super pull to get you started, but arguably it's not needed against some teams, and against anyone strong enough to give you real problems in a fight, the -2 TAC would be a helpful safety net...

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I was truly hoping the mascot be good but not so good as to completely outshine the otter. That squid is just better. Period. Kinda sad as j actually like salt, but oh well, I will have to give him a go to see if inike him meshing with my shark team. 

 

I will ill not use the siren. She is not as good as rookie is in shark teams, but goodness she is good in a corsair killfish team.

 

any word on release of the mascot's model? I hate proxy but will have to until that day

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Tentacles is all right. I think I like Salt better just because of loved creature. It means you can actually use him for gang up/crowd out without the enemy just killing him. If you use Tentacles for anything but blind, he will die.

Veteran Siren is great. Normal Siren serves a totally different purpose, but is also amazing. I'm not sure people are realizing how ungodly strong -2 TAC in an aura is. Even without Kraken around, vSiren takes an average of 2 hits against a TAC 6 model. Corsair gets an average of ~1 hits against him, which will probably do nothing, because of Tough Hide. Basically every player on the team is nigh-unkillable if the enemy has -2 TAC. If you wanna form a beatdown scrum in the middle, vSiren is incredible.

Also don't underestimate how much damage she can do. 3 length playbook with 4 TAC can very easily start wrapping and throwing out double momentum swings which include pushdodges and 2 momentous damage. I also like that she gets her aura for "free" alongside other useful playbook results.

As a footballer, she's not as good as normal siren. Seduced is incredible. That said, you have some good football options. If you go early a turn, she's nigh-unkillable. If you wait till they try and kill you to activate, you have a 16" charge threat on the ball because of Escaping Fate.

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2 hours ago, Jorenm said:

Tentacles is all right. I think I like Salt better just because of loved creature. It means you can actually use him for gang up/crowd out without the enemy just killing him. If you use Tentacles for anything but blind, he will die.

Def 4+ and Arm 1 is one of the better statlines typically seen in the game.

Loved Creature is a joke and a trap on Salt. The power is fantastic when the mascot with it has trait or play that skews turns (Tooled Up on Marbles, Second Wind and Bag of Quaffers on Quaff) as it makes the oponent have to choose wiping out the masctot quickly and giving a buff and momentum to you or letting you have the powerfult trait/play.

Salt offers nothing to make killing him quickly a necessity and he has low enough surviability to make killing him quite controlable meaning opponent is free to lay into him at their own pace and then drop the hammer when the loved creature buff would be of little consequence.

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4 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

Def 4+ and Arm 1 is one of the better statlines typically seen in the game.

Loved Creature is a joke and a trap on Salt. The power is fantastic when the mascot with it has trait or play that skews turns (Tooled Up on Marbles, Second Wind and Bag of Quaffers on Quaff) as it makes the oponent have to choose wiping out the masctot quickly and giving a buff and momentum to to you or letting you have the powerfult trait/play.

Salt offers nothing to make killing him quickly a necessity and has low enough surviability to make killing him quite controlable meabing opponent is free to lay into him at their own pace and then drop the hammer when the loved creature buff would be of little consequence.

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