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Blanca

What to do with Butchers?

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4 hours ago, Pangur Ban said:

I kind of feel it'd be more balanced if the receiving team had to deploy first, or at least the player who won the toss, but things are what they are.

I couldn't agree more

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I think that would give the kicking team way too big an advantage. It would be pretty easy to kick the ball to places where it would either be awkward or impossible to retrieve the ball...

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The ball scatters up to 6". It's not that easy to place it where you want it period. Sure, the receiver would have to deploy very conservatively. Getting to receive is such a huge advantage though. Most Guilds can only be stopped from scoring a first turn goal by poor dice if they get to receive and I think that would still be the case. Even the slowest Guilds have multiple players that can Sprint 7" or more. Even if they don't go for that goal, just having the ball so the other team can't score can be significant enough to turn a game on.

I don't have the playtesting experience Steamforged has though, so like I said it is what it is. I just don't feel the advantage to the Kicking team would be greater than the advantage to the receiving team is now, but rather the contrary. Ideally winning the toss is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage. It's certainly a great advantage now.

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Note that if you're the kicking team, you get the last activation of turn one which is actually an important benefit itself. If your opponent gets the turn one goal, they have a player far up the pitch and you still have an activation left to set up for a kill in.

You also now have the ball, do the kicking player is set up for the *next* goal and then you're even on goals and a kill up.

Trying for a first turn goal usually puts someone out of position enough that if you don't score, you probably lose the game.

There is a lot of other counterplay possibilities to the first turn goal plan, from goalkeepers to counter charge to whatever else. If nothing else, if you're playing Fish, you can kick with Shark and just take the ball back and score yourself before your opponent gets the opportunity to.

Remember that if you kick to the right place (helps to have a fast, good kicker, but Fish have tons of those) then the only person who's able to get the ball will be the enemy striker- meaning they can't score.

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I really don't know what to do.

Butcher's taking the ball and maintain behind his players, and as far as he can of Siren...so I have to go and fight for the ball (and been taken out...).

I'll try with Jac, and I'm thinking on give a chance to Corsair but I'm not sure about. I feel Grayscales is good against Butchers as he can go out of combat easily, so I don't be sure for which switch Jac, perhaps for Sakana or better for Angel?.

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After getting a game in against butchers last night, a few observations:

first, Jac is very durable vs them due to the stated reasons above

second, spread out and very much focus on the passing/scoring game. Butchers like to group up for buffs but you can deny a lot by spreading out. Jac plays into this but causing enemies to spread out and using goad forces a key player at you. Greyscales' unpredictable movement is also incredibly handy to avoid the team. Just remember it's once per turn so don't blow it on a lesser threat.

third, accept that 1-2 models are gonna be taken out unless the meatheads roll poorly. It's how they play and it to be expected. 

Fourth: siren is great at causing some disruption with her two character plays. Trickier to use, but valuable none the less

 

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I see your point, specially with Greyscales and Siren. I want to try Jac.

My real problem is that if he wins the initiative he forces me to make the kick off and he gets the ball and maintain it behind the rest of his team. What to do then? you can not pass the ball, don't score possibilities. No way.

 

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11 minutes ago, Blanca said:

I see your point, specially with Greyscales and Siren. I want to try Jac.

My real problem is that if he wins the initiative he forces me to make the kick off and he gets the ball and maintain it behind the rest of his team. What to do then? you can not pass the ball, don't score possibilities. No way.

 

You have many tools to pull an activated model out of the pile and farm momentum or damage. Shark can also probably go on a run to snag the ball and pass it out. Don't be afraid to send someone in on a charge, tackle the ball off their likely-1" melee carrier and then kick it far away. You may lose the 2 points for that player, but you will more than likely have control of the ball. 

It's all about patience when dealing with a well-protected ball carrier.

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I tried it but it's very difficult because he makes a wall over the ball.

I explain what I mean with a wall: Princess with the ball behind Shank, Ox, Boiler... so I can not charge on Princess I need first get out this guys and make a passage.

I guess that best choice is make a Lure with Siren to one way and make a little corridor for Shark, but even if I could do it, he will have three models on Shark and Siren with problems...I need to study better my possibilities

 

EDIT: I see, idea is put Jac inside the melee of three and make the heroic play, or go with ramming speed in order to make some space to pass with another model (Shark? Grayscales?) to tackle the ball.

Do you think that Kraken or Corsair could help against Butchers? Harpoon seems fine to reposition his model, and Corsair has Tough Hide (as Kraken), KD, sturdy and a good control of the ball. He is not as fast, brilliant and handsome as Shark (I love the model) but he could be useful in that kind of play. Perhaps I must change my mind

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44 minutes ago, Blanca said:

I explain what I mean with a wall: Princess with the ball behind Shank, Ox, Boiler... so I can not charge on Princess I need first get out this guys and make a passage.

How does he get the ball there? Who's activating first to go and pick it up? Unless you keep getting terrible scatter results or he's using Decimate and Shank there should be a way to get to whichever Butcher moved up to get the ball, no?

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He uses Gutter or Shank or Brisket move, pick the ball and pass the ball to Princess or someone else..

Also not the best results in the scatter, but he used to do that it's his way of play Butchers.

 

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I've only faced Butchers twice (only one person plays them) so take my advice/ideas with a grain of salt but you could use Siren to trigger Seduce off of her playbook.  Most of the Butchers are 4/0 or 4/1 and with 7 dice on the charge you should be able to get 4 hits which gives you 2 mom and a 1 inch dodge and if you make the pass it can give you another 4" to make a shot on goal.  Now you will probably loose Siren to this but it is an option to try and get past the wall.

Another option would be to kick the ball off to the side of the board with the opening kick forcing him to over extend his retriever.  If you have the Siren/Jac combo it would be an easy punish.

There is also simply waiting it out.  Stay out of threat ranges and let the Butchers come to you.  If they want to win they will have to do so at some point.

There is also the option for Shark to sprint up to the wall, Tidal Surge past to the ball carrier, swing once to tackle then take a shot on goal.  Though from what it sounds like who ever you send at that wall is probably going to be taken out but if you can net a goal each time you will gain VPs faster then they will.

Now of course you may have already tried these but just some ideas.

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Thanks Chakuu, I will adapt some of your ideas, I've tried some of them but not all, so I start to have a plan.

As our community is not so big, there is only one player with Butchers and perhaps is more his game style (is very experienced in other similar games) that the guild itself.

Today I will face a new Masons guy (and that's very exciting for me as I always play against the same Masons-my husband's ones-). But I keep the Butchers in mind for next week :)

 

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