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Blanca

What to do with Butchers?

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Hi!

I've played a game today, and Butchers killed me and not softly... we finish 12-4 for them. It was easy to make a first goal against them but then I was so fragile and with very few attacks he makes me four taken outs and a goal winning easily.

It's easy for Butchers to do taken outs in few attacks, and I don't know how to play against them.

I used Shark, Angel, Salt, Siren, Kraken and Grayscales but I'm not sure they are the best option (I would prefer to use Jac, but I'm waiting for the mini).

Some ideas?

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I used to love Siren, but since the errata hit I find it harder to justify bringing her. And Kraken isn't as bad as I sometimes make him out to be, but Butchers completely chew him up in my experience. 

The most important thing to keep in mind seems to be how your team is positioned though, and especially how it's positioned when you score that first goal. You can't give Butchers too many activations because they'll grind you down fast (as you noticed). You really need to be ready to recover the ball asap after scoring. It's a bit like snooker or pool: you can't just focus on potting a single ball, you have to do it in a way that allows you to pot the next one as well. So for instance, don't score the first activation you can because that probably means you won't have enough models near his goal for the follow-up.

Other stuff that comes to mind (I'm just listing things off the top of my head here, you probably figured some of this out by yourself already): if you can score with another model you can probably generate a bit more Momentum than if Shark has to go and do it, which might give you a better chance at winning initiative the next turn (this isn't always convenient though, and against Butchers the Momentum game is an uphill battle) so if you see an opportunity there it might be worth it setting that up. If you have to kick off, using Shark for that is an excellent choice against Butchers since that'll bring their retriever in easier range and you can have Shark generate Mom off of that model. You could also use your kicker though, simply because that will make it easier to get him or her in a potentially goal scoring position (no need to spend Shark's Inf to get other models up the board), but only if you think you'll be able to get the ball back and on that scorer in the first turn. If you get to receive, deploy so your opponent can't force you to go get the ball with Shark or with your prospective scorer: those two have a different purpose. Accept that you'll lose models: this game really is a race to be the first to 12 VP and with Butchers 8 of those 12 will usually come from takeouts. Your goal is to attempt to score faster than that (and maybe score two takeouts yourself). Also, you can play a more fighty game yourself but then you need a very different lineup (and against Butchers I'm not sure that's the best approach anyway).  

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Thanks for that complete reply!

I have to practice more, and be carefull on my intital position. I've done exactly what you are suggesting, have an initial score but with minis near his goal (Angel and Shark more close to the middle), and I was really close with Greyscales to tackle the ball at Briscket, but unfortunatelly I had only 1 HP and she kills me before I have the opportunity (as you said the Momentum game is an uphill battle and I lose the initiative due to that).

Really hard. Specially with Shank, he charges at 14'' !!! That's too much, he can control a lot of terrain. Well, let's stop crying and start studying the revenge ;)

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Blanca said:

Thanks for that complete reply!

I have to practice more, and be carefull on my intital position. I've done exactly what you are suggesting, have an initial score but with minis near his goal (Angel and Shark more close to the middle), and I was really close with Greyscales to tackle the ball at Briscket, but unfortunatelly I had only 1 HP and she kills me before I have the opportunity (as you said the Momentum game is an uphill battle and I lose the initiative due to that).

Really hard. Specially with Shank, he charges at 14'' !!! That's too much, he can control a lot of terrain. Well, let's stop crying and start studying the revenge ;)

 

 

If Shank shoots in and isolates himself, make him pay. You may not generate much momentum, but 2 points and an activation advantage will help. Plus, if he gets back into it too quickly, you might be able to kill him again! 

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1 hour ago, Maurice said:

If Shank shoots in and isolates himself, make him pay. You may not generate much momentum, but 2 points and an activation advantage will help. Plus, if he gets back into it too quickly, you might be able to kill him again! 

I agree with this - I will often, if my opponent doesn't think to get their initial receiver away, use Siren to have them wander into my half of the field and have a big fishy gang bang to take out a model early doors. Helps ever more that people just don't expect it against fish.

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Butchers are my most played against team and I almost never lose to them now. The key is not to get stuck in the middle as they will gang up and just beat you into a pulp. I try to keep Sakana/ Angel/ greyscales out on the flank so I always have a goal scoring opportunity. Fangtooth and Shark are great for stopping the butchers moving with rough ground and G&S, try to pin them in place before scoring. 

My team when I use Shark is usually Sakana, Angel, Greyscales, Fangtooth. 

Alternatively, I have been having some success in beating up the butchers using Corsair, Salt, Gutter, Kraken, Sakana, Angel. Boiler is pretty squishy as is Shank. Corsair loaded up with 6 inf can easily take out/ nearly take out those players. 

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Mascots are usually a reasonably easy 2 VP.   Getting rid of Princess also reduces their INF pool moving forward as well as the benefits that the other players get when they are near her.

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Thank you all!

I've to think on it, I honestly was waiting for Shano's post as I've read an astonishing game repport Fishermen-Butchers. I've not in mind to damage Butchers, I prefer to play football, but it's true that Princess, and Boiler, and perhaps Shank are quite squishy and I could try to clear the pitch a little bit and even prevent more attacks from those three (with their bleed condition...).

I've not Fangtooth by the moment, and not sure I'll add him in my line up. I'm quite happy with Kraken and the +1 ARM to Siren, as I used to play them one next to the other (I read lure is a great think to do with a model engaged with Kraken in order to give him a good extra hit qith parting blow). Also Siren is helpfull for her Seduced, I use this ability a lot (for pass the ball to me or yesterday with Butchers, to make Boar hit Ox, it was funny :D)

Open to more ideas!

 

Just now, Blanca said:

I'm quite happy with Kraken and the +1 ARM to Siren

Even that, I'm thinking on replace Kraken with Sakana, and let's see what happens. 

Because I guess that Greyscales with his dodge is very good against Butchers and I don't want to put Sakana for him. What do you think about?

 

(Now I only have this minis: Salt, Shank, Angel, Siren, Greyscales, Sakana and Kraken, I expect to have Jac in few weeks also)

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47 minutes ago, Blanca said:

I've not in mind to damage Butchers, I prefer to play football, but it's true that Princess, and Boiler, and perhaps Shank are quite squishy

As a Butchers player, I hate give you advice. :)  That said, don't forget Boar is DEF 2, ARM 0.  You'll never kill him with Fish - he's got too many HP and he heals 2 HP per turn.  But with 2-0 you can get almost any playbook result you need off him.  And if you keep him engaged, he can't do his free charge, so he'll only get 2 attacks, instead of 4.

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Thanks a lot, I'll take note about. 

Yesterday I've harpooned him with Kraken in order to maintain him occupied (due to that you are advising to me, 4 attacks is too much with 8 TAC...), and using Siren to Seduce him and hit Ox when Ox came to help him. But even though it was only two turns that he take out my two minis away...

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1 hour ago, Blanca said:

I've not Fangtooth by the moment, and not sure I'll add him in my line up. I'm quite happy with Kraken and the +1 ARM to Siren, as I used to play them one next to the other (I read lure is a great think to do with a model engaged with Kraken in order to give him a good extra hit qith parting blow). Also Siren is helpfull for her Seduced, I use this ability a lot (for pass the ball to me or yesterday with Butchers, to make Boar hit Ox, it was funny :D)

A Lured or Seduced model doesn't provoke Parting Blows from your models, since it's considered a friendly model for that action. @FearLord, the clarifications have been updated: Lure *is* an advance and can provoke Parting Blows, but only from your opponent's models (if he wants to try a KD or a Tackle, I suppose).

Siren's Plays are great when you can use them, but the problem is that they can often be prevented a little too easily for my tastes. If they can drop the ball you can't make them pass it and if they have one or two of their own models nearby you're likely hoping for a good scatter at best (and that's if the model with the ball has a decent Kick stat to begin with), if they're not engaging any of their own models you can't make them attack, and both Siren's CPs are 1/turn (which limits the attacking option specifically). Dropping the ball can only be done during the activation so it's not a foregone conclusion, but all in all chances are your opponent can prevent you from forcing a pass altogether or at least tank your dice pool. And we do have some options to position models so they can attack each other under Seduced, but that gets to be a lot of resources for the single attack you can get out of it - and that's if Seduced hits in the first place.

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23 minutes ago, Pangur Ban said:

A Lured or Seduced model doesn't provoke Parting Blows from your models, since it's considered a friendly model for that action. @FearLord, the clarifications have been updated: Lure *is* an advance and can provoke Parting Blows, but only from your opponent's models (if he wants to try a KD or a Tackle, I suppose).

Siren's Plays are great when you can use them, but the problem is that they can often be prevented a little too easily for my tastes. If they can drop the ball you can't make them pass it and if they have one or two of their own models nearby you're likely hoping for a good scatter at best (and that's if the model with the ball has a decent Kick stat to begin with), if they're not engaging any of their own models you can't make them attack, and both Siren's CPs are 1/turn (which limits the attacking option specifically). Dropping the ball can only be done during the activation so it's not a foregone conclusion, but all in all chances are your opponent can prevent you from forcing a pass altogether or at least tank your dice pool. And we do have some options to position models so they can attack each other under Seduced, but that gets to be a lot of resources for the single attack you can get out of it - and that's if Seduced hits in the first place.

Interesting change, but still doesn't help getting parting blows from Kraken. Quite nasty in a Minefield though...

I wouldn't say that Siren's abilities can be easily prevented. Arguably if you are making your opponent react to Seduction, you're already messing with his plans, depending on what he wants to do. Seduction certainly has some weaknesses (as it should), but it can be hugely powerful in the right circumstances - I especially like it to pressure after a goal where I have someone like Greyscales poised to come in as well - after the kick out, your opponent needs to choose whether to pick it up, and be vulnerable to Siren, or leave it down and be vulnerable to Greyscales.

Siren is still one of my most played models, even if people are wising up to her very strongest moves (goals that come from nowhere) and Lure gets better for me the more I use Corsair (for safer beat downs) and Jac (for setting up perfect push out opportunities). It's hard to see how Incan afford to lose the pure utility she brings, even though that's exactly what I'm currently trying to do...

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43 minutes ago, Pangur Ban said:

A Lured or Seduced model doesn't provoke Parting Blows from your models, since it's considered a friendly model for that action. @FearLord, the clarifications have been updated: Lure *is* an advance and can provoke Parting Blows, but only from your opponent's models (if he wants to try a KD or a Tackle, I suppose).

 

Ouch, I misunderstand that, then :( thanks for clarify!

Edit: is not a misunderstanding is my card that is not modified yet....with new ones it specifies that is a "friendly model" on Lure, before it was not specified...

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

You won't get a parting blow if you 'Lure' someone out of melee with Kraken. Lure is a reposition, not an advance.

Lure it's a Jog, so an advance, in the new charts, but it counts as a friendly model so it's a pitty because I can not use Lure in that way. So finally it's the same result. I can not do that.

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6 minutes ago, FearLord said:

Interesting change, but still doesn't help getting parting blows from Kraken. Quite nasty in a Minefield though...

Not really a change, just getting it right and keeping the rules consistent. A Jog is an Advance and an Advance is not a Reposition. That off-hand reference to Lure that showed up in a Reposition clarification was probably just an honest mistake.

As for Siren, I'm probably still slightly overreacting to the erratum. Nonetheless, I keep feeling it all falls just a little short of being good or at least being as good as some of the alternatives. Lure being 2 Inf (arguably the least convenient Inf cost) for a directly towards ability that only works on enemy models. Seduced only generating a single attack per turn and relying on the opponent's Kick stat for passing the ball. Neither of them allowing for a retry if they fail (not that you could afford to pay for two Seduceds with Inf anyway). She's a decent extra goal scoring option, but so is everyone else other than Salt and Kraken.

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It's a change from the original rule which stated that you move them up to their base move. Per the rules, a move like that would be a kind of reposition, and that's how it was clarified when I asked that specific question last year, but I don't disagree that it's more consistent to have repositions either be dodges or pushes, and everything else as an advance, so I prefer that.

Honestly, I had no problem with the Siren Nerf - I very very rarely use Seduction for an attack anyway, and the one main time I did I managed to generate over 9 momentum from her in one activation, which seemed pretty over the top, so I'm not shocked it was changed. A much bigger nerf for me would have been stopping me triggering it from play book or making in non momentous, so it still does what I want it to, most of the time.

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54 minutes ago, FearLord said:

Interesting change, but still doesn't help getting parting blows from Kraken. Quite nasty in a Minefield though...

I wouldn't say that Siren's abilities can be easily prevented. Arguably if you are making your opponent react to Seduction, you're already messing with his plans, depending on what he wants to do. Seduction certainly has some weaknesses (as it should), but it can be hugely powerful in the right circumstances - I especially like it to pressure after a goal where I have someone like Greyscales poised to come in as well - after the kick out, your opponent needs to choose whether to pick it up, and be vulnerable to Siren, or leave it down and be vulnerable to Greyscales.

Siren is still one of my most played models, even if people are wising up to her very strongest moves (goals that come from nowhere) and Lure gets better for me the more I use Corsair (for safer beat downs) and Jac (for setting up perfect push out opportunities). It's hard to see how Incan afford to lose the pure utility she brings, even though that's exactly what I'm currently trying to do...

I've always maintained that Siren is like Eiryss in Warmachine. It's not about what her powerful abilities will do, its the threat of them. Give her 3 Inf and your opponent will have to seriously have consider what she can make their team do to themselves and how that messes with their setup/plans and then adjust. For example If Ox is setting up for his double arua of death, Siren with enough inf to Lure him 6" is going to have to think again.

As a fish, your team is mostly self reliant and so dont have a tight order of activations to get things moving at full speed, that is what helps makes them the best ball playing team, no matter where the ball is they can better adjust to it and are not going to be as impacted trying to control it.

Teams like the Butchers, Masons and Brewers rely heavily on model synergy to be at their best and are as a result more specific activation and placement dependant. So making them have to activate in non-optimal ways or forcing their actions to be different to their prefered methond impacts them a hell of a lot more that it does to the Fish.

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This is all great advice, as I will be facing Butchers on Thursday night. I do have the typical fish lineup of Shark, Kraken, Siren, Jac, Greyscales and Salt. I own Angel, and am keeping my fingers crossed Sakana gets here by Wednesday. DO you think I should put Sakana in for someone, like Kraken, or a different player?  The one thing in my favor is that all of us are really 'green' at the game.  I usually kick off with Kraken, but after reading this, seems like Shark should be my kick off guy.

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I would drop Kraken faster than a hot coal, but I am very notably very dubious about his validity in most fish teams because he cant move fast, he cant pass well, at def 2+ Arm 1 he is the easiest person for oponents to generate MP off in our roster and he gives only 1 Inf to a typically Inf hungry team and sadly I dont think his early KD and directly towards and away push plays make up for that enough.

 

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I'm thinking on drop Kraken and use Sakana instead of him, too.  I see very nice qualities on Sakana, that fits well against almost all guilds.

My Butcher's opponent said me that's a bad idea because it's the only one of my team that's hard to kill for Butchers, with Tough Hide.....but he is my opponent, so...do I have to hear his suggestions or he is kidding me? <_<

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Kraken will still go down to a concentrated attack from Butchers. I am usually more than happy to have them concentrating attacks on Kraken rather than anyone else though.

Every attack on Kraken is a waste of time for a damage team like Butchers - they'll be generating plenty of momentum who ever they attack. 

I tend to lose Kraken when I play him into the Butchers, but once they commit the murder ball to killing him in the centre (usually with the Legendary) they aren't going anywhere until they take him out, and that can sometimes be all the time Shark needs to finish a game off...

Pull players in, keep them focused on Kraken while your faster players skirt the edges and score some goals - if you can get 2 goals before they get 4 kills, you're usually in pretty good shape!

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Kraken is not that tough, his low def makes it far too easy for high end playbook results to be achieved and his low number of hits means he still drops fast.

The Fish's top tough guy is Jac. He can take hits far better thanks to def 3+, arm 1 and tough hide, can clear lanes better than no one else (Trident Tested is probably one of the best heroic plays in the game) and he can knock down on a charge quite easily. While not taking up Kraken's role entirely, Jac can do a lot of it well and come with a respectable movement and kicking ability to boot

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