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MetacarpiUG

Starting 6

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Hey guys,

 

I'm looking at starting the Union as my Guildball team - got a few ideas for paint schemes and have an irresistible lure to some of the models - particularly the newly released Veteran Rage!

 

Anyways, I'm looking for some advice for my starting 6. I'm thinking...

Blackheart, Gutter, Coin, Rage, Mist, Fangtooth

Fangtooth and Rage will buddy up, as will Blackheart and Gutter for some hefty damage output. Planning on using Blackhearts Legendary play first thing to push everyone 2" up the field in order to engage early. Coin will be keeping between my two killy teams in order to pass out Bag of Coffers as required, and Mist will be there for some ball handling.

Any advice or thoughts?

Also, I want to make some custom goal markers for my team, what have you guys done in this respect?

Cheers!

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On 2/22/2016 at 4:41 PM, S_A_T_S said:

Sounds like a good starting team. Decimate is also pretty good, in case Fangtooth doesn't work out.

That's my team!  Blackheart, Gutter, Decimate, Mist, Coin, Rage.  Seems like a reasonable mix of murder and scoring ability.

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Personally I use A+G over Fangtooth but thats just me.

 

But if you looking at a team of 8 your starting line up with A+G and Snakeskin makes for some great flexibility in your line up

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My union lineup has changed since the latest errata. Currently I'm running Blackheart, Coin, Decimate, Mist, Rage, Minx, Fangtooth, Snakeskin. I plan to do a write-up on the team in the next couple weeks but here are my thoughts currently.

Blackheart - I choose him over Capt Rage for a couple reasons. First and most important, I don't have the experience with Capt. Rage to feel comfortable with him in a tournament. Second, I see Capt. Rage as a heavy damage dealer where Blackheart can be more versatile. Commanding Aura is still the key play for him, and his shadowlike plus 5/7 move is good for engaging or running to grab the ball and score.

Coin - no choice currently, although his bag of coffers is amazing. I've shifted him to supporting Mist recently, giving the free bonus time for a goal shot. Works nicely for an end of turn 1 goal if I receive.

Mist - often fights for MVP of the game. My typical game has moved to 2 goals / 2 take outs and Mist is the primary goal threat. Adding Second Wind on turn 1 lets him reposition without knee slider plot card very nicely after scoring.

Decimate - the other contender fighting for MVP every game. She can score, can move with her 6/9 movement, and can deal damage while serving up that wonderful momentum. She's devastating when attacking under CA, and is an all around top model.

Rage - I love this guy and wish he was my MVP, but he's always being edged out by Decimate or Mist. He's still in many of my lists as he's such an efficient damage dealer. That's his role, do damage. If I'm stuck where I won't be able to engage I use Tooled up on Decimate. There is little scarier than Decimate + tooled up + CA with 4 influence.

Minx - Minx is really coming into her own now that Gutter is not useful. She has a longer threat range than Gutter, deals similar to better damage, tackles better, and overall works better now that Gutter is only a damage dealer. She's also incredibly efficient, bringing 2 influence to the team while needing 0 on many turns. I use her to tackle the ball away from models and to clean up if my take-out rolls go badly with other models. She has a decent kick in a pinch and is amazingly fast.

Fangtooth - Fangtooth is an amazing player if you need knockdowns. I like to bring him for the easy access knockdown when facing Brewers, Morticians, and Engineers. He swaps into lists at other times as well, often replacing Minx. He's slow to move up the field, and partners really well with Rage (who is immune to most of his plays).

Snakeskin - Snakeskin never left my tray in the last tournament. Theoretically she is a ball carrier and ball retriever who has good movement and works as a backup striker. In practice she just isn't that good. She has trouble generating her own momentum, has a TAC that's sub-par, and is only good to hold the ball. I prefer to be moving the ball and scoring over holding the ball so she doesn't find a place in my lineup. I'll be swapping her out but am unsure who to put in her place. I may be swapping A&G into the lineup, but I'm not yet sure what they'll bring or when they'll swap someone out.

 

Thats my current tournament 8 (really a tournament 7)

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7 hours ago, Nix said:

My union lineup has changed since the latest errata. Currently I'm running Blackheart, Coin, Decimate, Mist, Rage, Minx, Fangtooth, Snakeskin. I plan to do a write-up on the team in the next couple weeks but here are my thoughts currently.

Blackheart - I choose him over Capt Rage for a couple reasons. First and most important, I don't have the experience with Capt. Rage to feel comfortable with him in a tournament. Second, I see Capt. Rage as a heavy damage dealer where Blackheart can be more versatile. Commanding Aura is still the key play for him, and his shadowlike plus 5/7 move is good for engaging or running to grab the ball and score.

Coin - no choice currently, although his bag of coffers is amazing. I've shifted him to supporting Mist recently, giving the free bonus time for a goal shot. Works nicely for an end of turn 1 goal if I receive.

Mist - often fights for MVP of the game. My typical game has moved to 2 goals / 2 take outs and Mist is the primary goal threat. Adding Second Wind on turn 1 lets him reposition without knee slider plot card very nicely after scoring.

Decimate - the other contender fighting for MVP every game. She can score, can move with her 6/9 movement, and can deal damage while serving up that wonderful momentum. She's devastating when attacking under CA, and is an all around top model.

Rage - I love this guy and wish he was my MVP, but he's always being edged out by Decimate or Mist. He's still in many of my lists as he's such an efficient damage dealer. That's his role, do damage. If I'm stuck where I won't be able to engage I use Tooled up on Decimate. There is little scarier than Decimate + tooled up + CA with 4 influence.

Minx - Minx is really coming into her own now that Gutter is not useful. She has a longer threat range than Gutter, deals similar to better damage, tackles better, and overall works better now that Gutter is only a damage dealer. She's also incredibly efficient, bringing 2 influence to the team while needing 0 on many turns. I use her to tackle the ball away from models and to clean up if my take-out rolls go badly with other models. She has a decent kick in a pinch and is amazingly fast.

Fangtooth - Fangtooth is an amazing player if you need knockdowns. I like to bring him for the easy access knockdown when facing Brewers, Morticians, and Engineers. He swaps into lists at other times as well, often replacing Minx. He's slow to move up the field, and partners really well with Rage (who is immune to most of his plays).

Snakeskin - Snakeskin never left my tray in the last tournament. Theoretically she is a ball carrier and ball retriever who has good movement and works as a backup striker. In practice she just isn't that good. She has trouble generating her own momentum, has a TAC that's sub-par, and is only good to hold the ball. I prefer to be moving the ball and scoring over holding the ball so she doesn't find a place in my lineup. I'll be swapping her out but am unsure who to put in her place. I may be swapping A&G into the lineup, but I'm not yet sure what they'll bring or when they'll swap someone out.

 

Thats my current tournament 8 (really a tournament 7)

I love this because that's the type of game I'm looking to play but it makes me sad because I love snakeskin.

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12 hours ago, Nix said:

 

Snakeskin - Snakeskin never left my tray in the last tournament. Theoretically she is a ball carrier and ball retriever who has good movement and works as a backup striker. In practice she just isn't that good. She has trouble generating her own momentum, has a TAC that's sub-par, and is only good to hold the ball. I prefer to be moving the ball and scoring over holding the ball so she doesn't find a place in my lineup. I'll be swapping her out but am unsure who to put in her place. I may be swapping A&G into the lineup, but I'm not yet sure what they'll bring or when they'll swap someone out.

I wouldn't really describe TAC 5 as sub par - besides Blackheart, only Rage and Decimate break that in your line up... She is only really good at ball carrying (and tanking), but she is very good at it. I didn't really rate her for quite a while, but I have a healthy respect for her now, as she can be incredibly hard to deal with...

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@FearLord TAC 5 in a vacuum is not subpar, but on snakeskin it is. When combined with the options, layout, and momentum in her playbook she struggles to deliver. She's good at tackling the ball but there are other union models who are better and are more useful in the same slot.

i keep trying to make her work but find she's always lacking.

 

 

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It's definitely her playbook more than her TAC.  She's definitely an odd player, as there's nothing really wrong with her from what I can tell and she hasn't really outright failed me, but she doesn't really DO anything either.  She's apparently supposed to be stealing the ball and holding it for the next turn, but her reliance on Nimble and Clone to do so makes her influence hungry enough that you have to allocate the kind of INF that should result in taking the ball and scoring instead.  Her damage is actually pretty good as is her threat range, but the complete lack of momentum on it really hampers her.  She definitely needs to be able to do a bit more with less.

There's other odd factors at play.  The prevalence of Charmed Male in general mixed with some great female Union attacks has created an environment where its less valuable than it probably should be and I'm not sure Nimble works in general.  Despite all this, she's honestly not bad, just not compelling.  I've never felt she's a liability when I've played her, but she doesn't have a niche that demands I take her other than having a pretty sweet model.

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On 3/21/2016 at 4:18 AM, Nix said:

Minx - Minx is really coming into her own now that Gutter is not useful. She has a longer threat range than Gutter, deals similar to better damage, tackles better, and overall works better now that Gutter is only a damage dealer. She's also incredibly efficient, bringing 2 influence to the team while needing 0 on many turns. I use her to tackle the ball away from models and to clean up if my take-out rolls go badly with other models. She has a decent kick in a pinch and is amazingly fast.

I listened to the episode of GBT where you elaborated on this perspective and whilst it is certainly your prerogative to feel that Gutter is not useful anymore - there are a couple of things that I find interesting when you compare Gutter with Minx.

Firstly it's a bit of a fallacy to say that Minx has a longer threat range than Gutter as they have the same threat range excepting for the conditional part of when Minx is charging a damaged target.  Whilst it is true to say that sometimes Minx has a longer threat range, it is by no means accurate to equate this to a 'better' threat.  The reason for this is that Gutters threat range is considerably more versatile than Minx' due to the fact that she has a 2" melee threat.  This element of her card alone almost by itself ensures that Gutter will always be useful.  Simply Gutter can charge on obscure angles reach targets that are on the other side of walls or crates and through a gap of models.  Minx by virtue of her 1" melee can do none of that and so once again the idea that Minx has a better threat range is certainly not the case even if at times she has a conditionally longer threat range.  

Talking more about threat range - one of the reasons that I've added Minx into my Union line up (particularly with Rage more so than Blackheart) is to mark targets and enable Rage' personal threat range as well as some of the other DPS in the team.  In that respect she can enable an extra two inches for the rest of the team and is a very mobile platform to do it from - much more so than some of the slower modules that it appears on.  

The second point that Minx deals similar to 'better' damage is also blatantly false.  Fundamentally they both have the same TAC, however, Gutter has Anatomical which in most circumstances translates to an additional automatic success - so she's effectively TAC 6++ in the same way that Decimate is effectively TAC 7++.  Also if you recall the 1" vs 2" Gutter will be able to engineer attacks with a higher likelihood of avoiding crowds (even if they're stalking solo prey on the wings Gutter comes out on top).  Then if you look at the damage spread on their playbooks they both have access to momentous 1, 2, 3 damage - however looking at the placement Gutter gets her 3 damage at 4 rather than 5 hits.  Granted Minx gets a double dodge on five as well, however, I don't think its necessary to argue the virtue of scything blow.  Gutter having access to pushes, pulls and KD give her a very versatile playbook and whilst screeching Banshee can be situationally good; Minx' utility is much lower than Gutters.  

Gettting back to overall utility - Minx is very dependent on getting a charge to make her monies worth and if she can't utilise furious, having a 2/2 inf stat is a lot worse than Gutters 2/4 stat.  If you can keep minx un-engaged and in position to charge every turn then you are making gains from her, however, again the more likely scenario is that she will get one free charge and then be shoe horned by the other team.  Once lines are established Gutter is extremely efficient - If you are on top of the momentum race and are able to have her initiate your turn it is highly likely that you can engineer multiple scything blows which will help to set up the rest of your turn.  

One of the main problems Minx has in the role you describe is that the second she encounters close control, and particularly any combination of unpredictable, clone, and/or DTtH - her usefulness as a winger is rendered impotent.  Decimate has the exact same issue and she is head and hands far better in the role than Minx due to her ability to dodge into melee rather than having to rely on a charge to get her there.  Gutter on the other hand, whilst her Tackle is deeper into the playbook has the advantage of being able to at least try and take the ball from grey scales, mash etc and that's not even using a walk/chain grab to circumvent the avoidance tech (which if either of them are in charge range - Gutter is in walk/ chain grab range).  Once they have the ball Gutter is also the better kicker, Minx' 2/6 stat is actually quite bad and the odds of her missing are high enough that you can expect it without surprise.  

~~

I appreciate that this latest patch has you feeling extremely upset about the further re-balance to chain grab.  I feel very strongly though that rather than being useless, she is now in a very good place.

She may not be able to first turn rofl stomp noobs anymore, however, surely that is a good thing for the game that will encourage the player base to evolve and adapt, rather than sitting on old laurels and dreaming of 'the good ol' days of the Centaurum!'.  

Personally my position is that she is still an incredibly effective damage dealer and under selling her as 'just a dps' is perhaps doing a dis service to a model that is extremely effective in that role creates significant no-go zones on the board and makes a passable scorer due to her effective kick stat and reasonable speed.  I find in particular that she brings a lot of bonuses to engineers (who lack credible damage) and that I also get great mileage out of her in Union (for her versatility) as well.  

 

Thanks

Tobias

 

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I'm pretty new but Reach seems really nice in this game. The fact that their single target damage is about equal but Gutters potential "aoe" damage is just ludicrous coupled with the fact that she also kicks better makes think she is still quite good.

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@sious_69 I appreciate you find my opinion laughable, but my play record is currently supporting my opinion awfully well. I guess until we have a chance to play each other cheap internet snipes are your best response.

@Desertspiral Well written post, I can absolutely see your points. I fully agree that if your playing Gutter with a focus on scything blow she is still a very good model. Furthermore, I still have not played her with Capt. Rage, which I've mentioned several times I believe will bring a nice focus and key role back to her.

I have not had the experience of her being useful in a Blackheart led list and stand by my experience that Mynx has become a better choice in every way. I did not play Gutter for damage for a couple reasons prior to the errata, and the reasons have not changed with the errata. First, there are other choices in Union that deliver better damage than gutter in the same slot. While her 2 inch reach is very nice, and a 2 inch reach is great overall in GB, I have not had trouble working around it. Careful positioning and solid play can regularly counter the advantages of clone and unpredictable movement, allowing the better damage dealers in union to engage despite the 1inch reach. I've regularly faced Obulous, Greyscales, Brisket, and Midas and taken them down, usually with Decimate and Rage delivering the bulk of the damage.

Second, my experience is that the only players that will give you multiple scything blow targets for Gutter have no or little experience playing GB. Even with her extended chain grab there are too many ways to avoid massive scything blow opportunities. At best I've seen experienced played losing 2 models to a gutter scything blow, rarely (if ever) more than that. I see lots of people claiming massive SB damage dealing with Gutter and it always makes me laugh. I can see this happening more with Capt. Rage on the table, but Gutter with her limited 4 influence should not be getting many hits unless the opponent is feeding you the models or simply does not care your setting up a scything blow. It's amazing to me that anyone can use "rofl stomp noobs" in relation to games I've described but openly accept absurd stories such as this without similar comments:

Overall, I appreciate your ( @Desertspiral ) opinion and view, I just don't have the same experience which is why she's dropped from my tournament 8 with Blackheart.

 

Bill

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4 hours ago, Nix said:

@sious_69 I appreciate you find my opinion laughable, but my play record is currently supporting my opinion awfully well. I guess until we have a chance to play each other cheap internet snipes are your best response.

It's amazing to me that anyone can use "rofl stomp noobs" in relation to games I've described but openly accept absurd stories such as this without similar comment.

 

You are right, JamieP is a noob at this game.  I used his weaknesses at positioning and trivially killed three players. 

 

It's not a cheap internet snipe, I would say exactly the same thing to your face.  And yes, let's have a game.

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It's not really about getting 3+ players with Scything Blow. Or even 2+ (though that is nice). The key is that it's great, *momentous* damage on 4 hits for a model with TAC5, AP, decent speed, and Reach. That is crazy, and you're already in business if you can dump them on one player. If you are tagging 2-3, woe be to your opponent for what that means in the takeout game AND the momentum game.

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@DrillbossD agreed. If your looking for that exact combination (3 damage, momentum, achieved on 4 hits, TAC5, AP, speed 6/8, reach) then Gutter is the only choice.

I look at things a bit different. I'd break down your components above along the following lines in relation to what's important for me:

  1. Damage potential
  2. Speed for threat range
  3. Speed for moving around the board
  4. need for 2 inch reach

Overall I look at more than that, but those seem to encompass the areas your evaluating. As a side note I also consider:

  • Influence contributed to the team
  • Greedy or not Greedy player (also referred to as Battery, Neutrals, Greedies)
  • Overall role on the team (for me this boils down to very high level/simplified categories of goal scoring/damage dealing/control/other)
  • Fueling combo's

Back to your 4 criteria of evaluation.

On damage potential Gutter has momentous 1, 2, and 3 damage, all momentous, on 1, 2, and 4 successes. The chain grab damage of 3 carries its own risks due to needing the positioning to not damage your own models but should be worked around. Only Gutter's 1 and 2 damage benefit from Commanding Aura. Unfortunately her base TAC of 5 when compared to an average defense of 4 (removing the average armor of 1 for AP) means she has to spike to pass her statistically average successes of 3.

Now, Decimate also has damage of 1, 2, 3 but its on 1, 2, 5 successes. Decimate also does not have a momentous result on her 3 damage, only 1 and 2. At the same time she benefits from Commanding Aura for all her damage track and can more reliably deliver the damage with a tac of 6 plus AP. She only has 1 inch range so can suffer from crowding out more often but has a dodge on nearly all her results allowing her to positing easier to avoid the crowding out.

Minx also has 1, 2, 3 damage on her playbook at 1, 2, and 5 successes. All of these are momentous and all benefit from commanding aura. Additionally, Minx get's a free charge which can more reliably deliver the 3 damage result with a decent wrap than Gutter can. More reliably because it's not telegraphed in the same way gutters influence load telegraphs her attack. Also more reliably because Minx is often (for me) charging a model who's been damaged so her threat range is 12 inches instead of 10.

Then we come to the real damage dealer, Rage. Rage has 1, 2, 3 damage with momentum on 1, 2, 4 successes. He is also more efficient with his influence spend and causes bleed after the attacks. He does not benefit from Commanding Aura, but delivers enough damage to be a problem.

If only looking for damage all three of these players come in tied with or ahead of Gutter for my evaluation. On this area I would rate them Rage, Decimate, then Minx and Gutter tied for a third choice. This means I look elsewhere (beyond momentous damage) when deciding which to include in my list.

TBC in following posts.

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Let's look at 2 & 3 now, speed for threat range and moving around the board.

Gutter sits at a 6/8 speed with a 2 inch reach. Considering extra buffs available to everyone on the Union team such as Give&Go/Pass&Move, Second Wind, and Marked Target the base movements/movement traits and reach are all that matters for factors 2 and 3. So, Gutter can threaten 8 inches for 1, 10 inches for 2 influence, and 12 inches for 3-4 influence. For strict movement we're only looking at covering 8 inches in a turn, 10 inches if your looking for something involving her melee range (ganging up, crowding out, engaging, etc). Gutter is an 9 inch threat for picking up a loose ball.

Decimate sits at a 6/9 speed with a 1 inch reach. This means her threat is 7 inches for 1, 10 inches for 2+. Every attack Gutter lands extends her threat an additional inch prior to her last attack. Decimate brings Second Wind to the team so if that's going to be in play she'll already be in your roster for the additional movement. This is important for base movement as it increases Decimate to a 13 inch movement threat for those factors involving her melee range, and makes her a 13 - 16 inch threat for picking up a loose ball.

Minx sits at a 7/9 speed with a 1 inch reach. This means her threat is 8 inches for 1, 10 inches for 2+. Wait.... those only actually factor in if she is engaged. Minx's true threat is 10 inches for 0 influence. If she's charging a wounded model it's actually 12 inches for 0 influence. On the strict movement front, Minx has a wide range of movement based on where the opponent needs to be. She will be able to follow-up up to 7 inches any time an opponent model moves within 1 inch of her during their activation. This throws off her overall movement evaluation across a turn, leaving the bottom end at 9 inches in a turn and 10 inches for picking up a loose ball.

While I don't believe it's really what some are trying to compare, there is a strong consideration for both Snakeskin and Mist when looking at movement and threat ranges. If movement is what's important to your consideration opposed to movement plus dealing damage, Mist and Snakeskin are the top distance models in the Union with Mist's 16 inch movement / 18 inch threat and snakeskins 10 inch movement/11 inch threat.

 

TBC on 2 inch reach

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2 inch reach is a fantastic ability in the game, but I am becoming more and more convinced it's overrated by the overall community. If 2 inch reach was all powerful as it's often claimed to be, Fish would be dominating the game as the faction with the most 2 inch reach.

That said, it's a really great ability and should not be discounted. Gutter brings 2 inch reach and that's amazing when combined with Scything Blow. It's also very good for countering Unpredictable Movement and Clone. Both of these have something in common though, which is they only trigger once per turn. Additionally, as dodges, the model needs someplace to dodge to and the room to dodge.

Following the first errata in October Gutter and Mist are the only 2 Union players to have a 2 inch reach. However, it's important when placing value on this to also consider that Blackheart and Coin also have 2 inch reach. This means both these models can be used for the gaining up/crowding out bonus that seems people are searching for. It also means that if one of the primary drivers for Gutter's value is her 2 inch reach for countering UM & Clone, it's predictable. A skilled player will use that predictability to mitigate the usefulness of what your trying to do.

I'm basically saying you'll have to work just as hard against a skilled player to pin down their UM & clone players with or without Gutter. If your going to include her in your team 2 inch reach is an asset she brings, but I do not find the value of it more than an added bonus when facing the opponents I typically play against.

___________________________________

I'm certainly open to hearing any other non-defensive and non-hostile thoughts or ideas. I also look forward to getting Gutter back on the table with Capt. Rage and see how she plays there. Many of areas I don't find her valuable with Blackheart are boons when combined with Capt. Rage who brings a different set of strengths & limitations with Blackheart. Ironically when compared to the current fluff, I currently suspect Gutter actually works better with Capt. Rage than Blackheart.

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These altercations on the interwebs make me sad. Maybe I'm soft but especially in relation to the people involved I expect better. Just my opinion and maybe I am soft but I don't think there is any need. I love this game and I used to love this forum for helpful discussions, which lets face it people are only airing their opinions to help others, so find it very disheartening reading threads like this that are full of very valuable information in the main. Whatever personal grievances people have (albeit justly or unjustly) can we leave them out of these forums.

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On 3/30/2016 at 11:08 AM, cdhay said:

These altercations on the interwebs make me sad. Maybe I'm soft but especially in relation to the people involved I expect better. Just my opinion and maybe I am soft but I don't think there is any need. I love this game and I used to love this forum for helpful discussions, which lets face it people are only airing their opinions to help others, so find it very disheartening reading threads like this that are full of very valuable information in the main. Whatever personal grievances people have (albeit justly or unjustly) can we leave them out of these forums.

It's cool to be rude on the internet though or something.

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