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Tiddytwister

Using Ghast or Graves auto lose against Midas

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OK Midas is a little bonkers.  Is it pretty much game throwing down Ghast or Graves against Midas?  Gifting him with sything blow or unmasking, with his GB token position on his playbook, will result in Midas easily taking out 1-3 models a turn.  What the heck do u do against this?

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Yes the first time Midas busts out his tricks & smashes you up with his stolen tech is painful!!

But the Alchemist player does need to commit a lot of resources to use True Replication, which means a big chunk of the team's influence is on Midas when he's planning to steal. You can use that to your advantage 

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Your main worry with this stuff is actually turn 1.  After that it is a lot of commitment in his turn to pull the ability off and there is a very good chance you can lure him into a trap utilizing Ghast.

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I play against the Alchemists a lot and i havent won a game vs them (1 opponent mainly) in the last 7 times we have played, not even close. Once people figure him out, Midas is a weapon. The trouble i always have is his defensive abilities (Clone, Def 5, Unpredictable Movement, Metallic Skin +1 Arm, Heavy Burden) it makes him really hard to kill or even pin down.

This is 2 fold when you have double Blind and a goal keeper to worry about.

This i think is the main problem, I want to kill him. I dont need to, just want to. Therefore i invest so much positioning , players and influence into that, the rest of the team just has a field day. Usually its Midas, Vitriol, Flask, Compund, Calculous, Decimate. 

 

Thats all i can come up with anyway, i havent tried it yet, its a theory ill try soon. I needed a break from playing them and getting my ass kicked everytime:rolleyes:

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Both Ghast and Graves have 2" melee zone=no unpredictable movement for that slippery sucker and with Ghast having KD in column 2, put that boy on his butt and then commence the stomping all over it :D

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@bn42

Midas has both clone and unpredictable movment.  So he has 2 two inch moves to make. When ghast or graves first engages him he moves back his first 2 inches from UM,  then his second 2 inches from clone after the first attack from ghast or graves.  Clone also ignores the result of that first and only attack.  Also both of these moves he can make when hes knocked down as per wording on dodges.

 

 

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UM is only activated when an advance ends in his melee zone, so stay within 2" but more than 1" away. Clone I accept and it would be useful to get him before he activates or having to double team him...

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1 hour ago, bn42 said:

UM is only activated when an advance ends in his melee zone, so stay within 2" but more than 1" away. Clone I accept and it would be useful to get him before he activates or having to double team him...

O i c.  Well that actually does help a little bit.  Still a death sentence if you cant kill em.  Surrounding him when he has one of those 2 moves looks like absolute team suicide

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All I got left is (purely situational, but if he damages Ghast you should have free 2 MP). Counter attack....It'll force him another result as he knows KD is quite easy to get and you'll get 2 goes at.

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If you must take one of the characters with unmasking or scything blow then it's a case of making sure he cannot take it on the first turn. Whether that's through kicking and starting off the line with the character and saving his activation till last or whatever. Spending 5 or 6 with ghastly fear on the second turn when battle has been joined is a nasty cost. Without a horrible play on midas alchs aren't winning a fight with morts so maybe throwing the rest of the team forward while one player cowers could be effective. I say this as a midas player who's  only seen people avoiding taking those characters in the last 20 games. 

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6 hours ago, Mattyg2787 said:

I use ghast as bait for it.  Midas will have to come fairly close to get it. Then he won't have dodge up afterwards. Ghast charges and kd. Then obulus with tooled up kills that jerk

Remember though, dirty Midas can still dodge with unpredictable movement when knocked down.  Something else has to trigger it before Obulus goes in.

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1 hour ago, Tiddytwister said:

Remember though, dirty Midas can still dodge with unpredictable movement when knocked down.  Something else has to trigger it before Obulus goes in.

You can't unpredictable movement while knocked down. Unpredictable movement triggers when you enter the model's melee zone, while knocked down he doesn't have a melee zone. If he were standing up Obulous would not trigger it either due to his 2 inch melee range compared to the 1 inch of Midas.

I don't think playing into Midas with the Unmasking or Scything Blow is an auto-lose however it does require you to think about True Replication during the game and play round it. In my experience most players(of any Guild) would rather avoid using players with those character plays but it can be played around.

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8 minutes ago, Xoryn said:

You can't unpredictable movement while knocked down. Unpredictable movement triggers when you enter the model's melee zone, while knocked down he doesn't have a melee zone. If he were standing up Obulous would not trigger it either due to his 2 inch melee range compared to the 1 inch of Midas.

I don't think playing into Midas with the Unmasking or Scything Blow is an auto-lose however it does require you to think about True Replication during the game and play round it. In my experience most players(of any Guild) would rather avoid using players with those character plays but it can be played around.

Exactly this. If nothing else you can take those players and use them to trap Midas. He will often have to sprint to get to position to use it and then he cannot Clone. With Puppet Master etc, you can easily set a trap for him if he decides to take that bait.

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Knocked down models still have a melee zone. They just can't engage.

Also if you Puppet Master Midas you can prevent unpredictable movement by having him Advance into melee range of, say, Casket, which means you don't need to trigger it.

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Thanks for all the help team!  There's some game changers in here that I overlooked before.  Still not giving Midas  SB tho.  Unmasking maybe, since Ghast Obulus combo killing Midas seems pretty reasonable now that Obulus gained reach (lol I'm an idiot).

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1 hour ago, Xoryn said:

You can't unpredictable movement while knocked down. Unpredictable movement triggers when you enter the model's melee zone, while knocked down he doesn't have a melee zone.

Your comment made me question so just for clarity you can use Unpredictable Movement while knocked down, you lose the ability to engage not your 'melee zone' as described by UM. Checked and confirmed with rulebook and lawyers guild. 

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17 minutes ago, Hylo said:

Your comment made me question so just for clarity you can use Unpredictable Movement while knocked down, you lose the ability to engage not your 'melee zone' as described by UM. Checked and confirmed with rulebook and lawyers guild. 

After being corrected I did a check myself as well and found out I was wrong. The no melee zone is a Warmachine-ism I believe, so apologies about that. It does however Obulous has just gotten even better, my regular opponents will be pleased I am sure ;)

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The biggest trick is not to give it up turn 1.  So setup with Ghast over 16" away and keep him like that until Midas has gone.  If he comes up and kicks to get the distance, set the trap.  Put ghast there, let Midas get unmasking - then kill him good. Ghast charges and kd.  Obulus then goes his 1 billion inches with 8 inf and tooled up to kill midas.  

 

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