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      Training Ground   02/14/2018

      There’s a new section in the guild ball area designed to help rookies, but it needs others to help out - why not write a post for it? Anything that’s good for people to know, whatever faction they’re starting out with!
Banjulhu

How can I use Salt?

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7 hours ago, Zealot said:

But I really just want to say this:  if you hate him, I encourage you to think about him on his own terms, in the Fishermen line up, and not to waste your time comparing him to other mascots.

 

It's not hate, and it's not about being the 'worst' mascot. Someone always has to be. It's that he feels so inconsequential, at least to me. Being fast is arguably the least interesting quality a Fish mascot could possibly have, and that's the only quality he has.

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6 hours ago, Pangur Ban said:

It's not hate, and it's not about being the 'worst' mascot. Someone always has to be. It's that he feels so inconsequential, at least to me. Being fast is arguably the least interesting quality a Fish mascot could possibly have, and that's the only quality he has.

Well perhaps it is just how boring he is that makes him useful. If he is ignored by your opponent but manages to do something to positively influence the game then he has at least done something! I can't argue that Salt is "interesting." He is fast and even if not interesting it is useful. It means he can do little tasks like bring the ball up the wing while your interesting players do interesting things. What I am trying to say is that he is way faster than any of our support - type models and he is capable of doing things which opens up the rest of the team to do other things.

I am glad to hear that you personally don't hate him. I read through the whole thread before posting and it sounded to me like there was a lot of frustration out there and perhaps some hate as well. I didn't direct my comments at anyone specifically, just in general. After all when the thread "how do I use Salt?" turns to a ranking of all mascots (with Salt at the bottom somewhere) and a hopeful (and completely speculative) discussion about season two then there can't be all that much love out there!

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3 hours ago, Zealot said:

1) If he is ignored by your opponent but manages to do something to positively influence the game then he has at least done something!

2) What I am trying to say is that he is way faster than any of our support - type models and he is capable of doing things which opens up the rest of the team to do other things.

I don't hate Salt, but I'm starting to hate these comments (don't take it personally, I know it's coming from a good place). :P

1) You're saying he's good if despite not being good he still manages to do something good. And you throw in "if he's ignored by your opponent", which is the same as saying "if your opponent makes a mistake". None of this redeems him. He's apparently only good when happenstance conspires to allow him to be, and that doesn't count.  

2) He's not that much faster, unless Jac helps out. And even then you should take into account that all these other models can actually kick worth a damn, which is more useful in terms of getting the ball up the field. Honestly, what does he do that opens up anything for the rest of the team?

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6 minutes ago, Pangur Ban said:

I don't hate Salt, but I'm starting to hate these comments (don't take it personally, I know it's coming from a good place). :P

1) You're saying he's good if despite not being good he still manages to do something good. And you throw in "if he's ignored by your opponent", which is the same as saying "if your opponent makes a mistake". None of this redeems him. He's apparently only good when happenstance conspires to allow him to be, and that doesn't count.  

2) He's not that much faster, unless Jac helps out. And even then you should take into account that all these other models can actually kick worth a damn, which is more useful in terms of getting the ball up the field. Honestly, what does he do that opens up anything for the rest of the team?

I don't take much personally, so don't worry on that front.  At the same time, though, I think you are not considering all that I said in the above comments.  I laid out a very clear scenario where Salt can be very useful, and pointed out that his utility is actually increased by his "uninteresting" nature.  My point is that, in the games I have played, I have both tended to ignore Salt and also seen my opponents ignore him.  Now, sure, that is likely to change if all of a sudden Salt starts doing snap shots and winning games, or using his nasty little teeth to take down Rage. 

As for the speed issue.  He is much faster than Kraken, Jac, and even a little bit faster than Greyscales.  The pitch is very big.  It is almost impossible to cover that much space for many teams, and if they have a choice they are very likely to focus their attention on any of the other Fish players.  This isn't so much a matter of your opponent making a mistake as it is the responsibility of the Fish player to force a scenario where the only choice the opponent has is to ignore Salt and concentrate on the bigger threats.  That's where Salt's speed and mobility, as uninteresting as they might be, come into play and he can move the ball.  So don't think about this as "Salt is a ball carrier."  Think of this as Salt is the sixth player on the team, a team that covers space amazingly well with its tricksy dodges and high speed sprints.  It is not hard to create a situation like that which I described above, where you score and then the opponent counter scores.  Is it a mistake for the opponent to counter score in that scenario?  Maybe.  But you have lots of fast people that are likely to get to the ball.  And if you have positioned them correctly, you have covered the pitch in threat ranges and forced them to goal kick in a particular direction.  If you can anticipate where that is going to be, Salt can show up "out of nowhere" and be in a position to affect the game.  Not much happenstance about it, really.

If you sit at a 3x3 pitch and position the Fish team around on the board, you will see just how much space there is and just how hard that space is to cover for many opposing teams.  Salt has a real place in that he plays a position on the pitch, until you need him.  If your opponent makes a mistake, even better.  I don't know of anyone who plays a perfect game.  If a player is particularly useful in scenarios where your opponent makes mistakes, that doesn't mean that the player is useless!  In most real-world games that player will have tons of utility.  And even more so if you can actually compel your opponent to make "mistakes" in assigning coverage on the pitch.

 

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17 minutes ago, Zealot said:

But you have lots of fast people that are likely to get to the ball.

I think that's my point. I already have lots of people that are likely to get the ball. It's because of that that Salt's single quality is so underwhelming. 

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  Ahh. The infamous quotation out of context. Listen man I am not trying to talk you into being impressed by Salt. You can continue to post about a mascot you find so unremarkable--no one can stop you. But please don't quote me out of context, responding to a long post with one dismissive line. What's the point in that, honestly? And don't take it personally, right?

1 hour ago, Pangur Ban said:

I think that's my point. I already have lots of people that are likely to get the ball. It's because of that that Salt's single quality is so underwhelming. 

In the context I made that comment the point is specifically about goal kicks. The issue is this: can you cover the pitch sufficiently to *both* score a goal, threatening the area around the opponent's goal, AND have a player ready to receive the goal kick if your opponent scores. All while simultaneously keeping a line of attack open to threaten a second goal in the same turn. Salt can help you do that. He fits into the team because the team is designed to score goals and he can help you move the ball from one end of the pitch to the other. If that is underwhelming for you then I can't help ya.  The topic is about how to play Salt. I am trying to answer that question and I think there are people out there that are interested I having that conversation. It is an important conversation and one that has the potential to be very interesting. So if you want to dismiss my claims please engage the substance. 

1 hour ago, Pangur Ban said:

 

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17 hours ago, MacTuitui said:

Well, what I like about the Fishermen is that we have the most lively discussions about the Mascot. And then Masons never use Harmony.

This is mostly because you must take Salt, there is no alternative mascot at present. Whereas there are plenty of alternatives to Harmony.

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I like to use salt to pick up loose balls and run away with them then use jac to pull him accross the board ball and all then you have the ball with a fairly meaty player. 

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I've seen Salt score twice in a game, he is a very viable Goal threat even with only 1 dice to kick (2 with Bonus Time), just due to his speed. So I'm not sure he is useless. 

But there is something I've noticed in Guild Ball.. A player is only as good as you think he is. If you put 0 Inf on Salt and treat him as useless that is all he will be.. If you sometimes at opportune times throw in an Influence or two, he can often surprise you.

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21 minutes ago, Ratty said:

I've seen Salt score twice in a game, he is a very viable Goal threat even with only 1 dice to kick (2 with Bonus Time), just due to his speed. So I'm not sure he is useless. 

But there is something I've noticed in Guild Ball.. A player is only as good as you think he is. If you put 0 Inf on Salt and treat him as useless that is all he will be.. If you sometimes at opportune times throw in an Influence or two, he can often surprise you.

But the internet says...!

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I also find he tends to hang around, people tend to avoid him early in the turn, as the last thing you want is Fishermen with +2"/+2" move. And because you tend to use him on a wing to spread out your team and fill gaps, they often don't have a character in position to deal with him late in the turn.

Other teams Mascots tend to get beaten into the ground... Salt tends to hang around giving you an extra activation, which is definitely worth something.

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14 hours ago, Chrisb said:

I like to use salt to pick up loose balls and run away with them then use jac to pull him accross the board ball and all then you have the ball with a fairly meaty player. 

You are aware that if Salt grabs the ball in his turn and is dragged in Jac's that there is no way to get the ball into Jac or anyone elses hands that turn.

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12 hours ago, Ratty said:

Other teams Mascots tend to get beaten into the ground... Salt tends to hang around giving you an extra activation, which is definitely worth something.

Honestly, this seems to be true only if you keep Salt way out of the danger zone so it's simply too resource-consuming to go get him. If you use him so your opponent can get to him, he'll usually get targeted just the same since he's fairly squishy, gives 2 VP just like anyone else and because he can't come back it denies you an activation and one Inf for the pool afterwards.

But any mascot can do that. ;) The player just has a choice of getting some work out of the mascot in return for putting it at risk, or keeping it as safe as possible to guarantee the Inf and activation but not getting anything useful done.

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The difference is that Salt is useful on a wing out of the way due to his speed, which a lot of mascots aren't.. He can either Ball retrieve, or go for a Goal.

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37 minutes ago, Ratty said:

The difference is that Salt is useful on a wing out of the way due to his speed, which a lot of mascots aren't.. He can either Ball retrieve, or go for a Goal.

A Shot on goal will likely require 2 Inf, possibly 3 depending on how far out of the way he needed to be. Retrieving the ball too, unless you are ok with not passing it. And any Kick is a coin flip unless you Bonus Time it, but the main thing is that you're going to be allocating some Inf that will go to waste unless the ball ends up somewhere he can do something with it. Making Salt (potentially) useful is a bigger inconvenience than most (arguably all) other mascots.

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Like I said above, he can automatically be in position to retrieve a goal kick. If he is within 10 of your goal and you scatter the ball off of him it cannot go anywhere that he can't get it, for zero influence. I think he really shines on turns you want to score twice, allowing your opponent to score in between. And if your opponent waits until the very end of the turn then Salt can grab the ball and evade almost anyone, delivering it to a scoring threat.

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14 hours ago, Zealot said:

If he is within 10 of your goal and you scatter the ball off of him it cannot go anywhere that he can't get it, for zero influence. 

And still can't do anything with it, with zero Inf.

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On 08/02/2016 at 1:04 PM, MacTuitui said:

Well, what I like about the Fishermen is that we have the most lively discussions about the Mascot. And then Masons never use Harmony.

Yes they do. @nobby uses her alot.

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2 hours ago, Korak said:

Yes they do. @nobby uses her alot.

She was in my tournament 8 this weekend with no Flint in there :D She didn't play though, but I was tempted to use her many times and wish I had to be honest. Also Salt peed me off in my last game and would not die.

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55 minutes ago, kestershero said:

Salt is awesome he did so many assists for me yesterday at the skull cup and only died once in 5 games.

Only because you had dtth -_- Hate that plot card so much!

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6 hours ago, Pangur Ban said:

And still can't do anything with it, with zero Inf.

Of course he can - he can move the ball up the board and drop it 8" from where he started, so snapping it to a player 10" from where he started, or leaving it close enough for a player to come back and get it...

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23 minutes ago, FearLord said:

Of course he can - he can move the ball up the board and drop it 8" from where he started, so snapping it to a player 10" from where he started, or leaving it close enough for a player to come back and get it...

Zealot was talking about a two goals in one turn scenario with Salt retrieving the ball in between. Sorry, but I don't see that happening without Inf on Salt. In fact, I rarely see this happening even with Inf on Salt. But this is turning into me seeing things more negatively than strictly necessary in response to other people seeing things a little more optimistically than I think is warranted, again, so I'm going to agree to disagree and bow out.

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46 minutes ago, Pangur Ban said:

Zealot was talking about a two goals in one turn scenario with Salt retrieving the ball in between. Sorry, but I don't see that happening without Inf on Salt. In fact, I rarely see this happening even with Inf on Salt. But this is turning into me seeing things more negatively than strictly necessary in response to other people seeing things a little more optimistically than I think is warranted, again, so I'm going to agree to disagree and bow out.

Whether you get 2 goals in a turn is neither here nor there really - the important point is that it can help you score a goal after your opponent scores one. I've scored a lot of goals this way that I would not have been able to without Salt as a reliable ball taxi...

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