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Banjulhu

How can I use Salt?

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23 minutes ago, sious_69 said:

My question to you is, 'Why are you giving your mascot Influence to do things?'. In my, albeit limited experience, Mascots really want to do a whole lot of nothing. Give that Influence to someone who can actually do something with it. 

Marbles, Princess and Scum all want Inf to either pull off a play or make an attack.

Mainspring want to die and return mostly but also could use inf to drop an Intensify if it can.
Dirge is out there to die and return possibly using inf to make an attack to buff teams TAC on a target.

Coin wants nowt and is there to pass out Inf and Bonus Time for free.
Flask wnats nothing either and is a way to drop ever useful cover in a team that has vitriol and mist available

Salt does not want influence because once he has it he has no use for it and you generally dont want him to die because what you get is minor compensation at best and very easily controlled by the enemy

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38 minutes ago, Ryoshi said:

Salt's greatest ability is to pick up stray balls, and that only applies when there is a stray ball close enough to be picked up in the first place.

What annoys me is that he can fairly reliably tackle on a charge and, assuming the target doesn't have a 2" melee zone, has a decent shot at getting to Dodge away from a counterattack... and then if you've given him a 3rd Inf for a pass he's going to need to Bonus Time it with that Mom he hopefully got from the wraparound or you're looking at a coin flip for whether the ball ends up where you need it (which has to be within 4") and you get another Mom to maybe try and shoot at the goal with. It'd be a steep investment in Inf but with just slightly higher KICK stats he'd be good at recovering the ball in general, not just stray ones. As is, I'd have to be completely backed into a corner to even contemplate trying this out.  

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@Pangur Ban - Pretty much my feelings as well.  I don't see why Salt shouldn't at least have a Kick Value of 2... even if the kick distance doesn't change.  As is Salt is just, well, inconsequential in pretty much every sense.

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10 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Marbles, Princess and Scum all want Inf to either pull off a play or make an attack.

Princess never gets Influence.  Marbles usually gets 1 for Goad/ Tooled Up, two of the best plays in the game.  Scum rarely gets any.

 

10 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Mainspring want to die and return mostly but also could use inf to drop an Intensify if it can.

 

 

Mainspring doesnt have Intensify, Flask does.  Mainspring has Super Shot. Guess how often he uses it.

 

10 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Salt does not want influence because once he has it he has no use for it and you generally dont want him to die because what you get is minor compensation at best and very easily controlled by the enemy

 

I just think you need to revise what you are doing with your Mascot. Not every player on the team is there to use Influence. Trying to do so will result in ineffective turns. Salt is actually one of the best Mascots in my opinion, because there is no temptation to give him Influence. He is exceptionally fast, with only Dirge on paper being faster, but with Jac in the team he easily outpaces him.  He can do all the things another player without Influence can do, and is able to avoid being hit due to his innate DEF5.   

 

 

 

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While I think most players would agree that Salt is the worst Mascot in the game by a good margin (a problem in itself), saying he does nothing is an exaggeration. He's got the tools to either go a long way to pick up a ball and kick it back towards you/in the net, or go in + tackle + WTG out. Main issue is those tools aren't optimized enough, not that they don't exist.

A nice thing about Guild Ball is that Steamforged, in only a short time, have demonstrated they are willing to significantly adjust models to make the game more interesting. Right now Fishermen have to take Salt, so it's hard to contextually compare him to anything. There's no choice. If it turns out that Salt is miles behind our new Mascot in almost every possible team lineup (including Angel/Jac), then I don't doubt the "furry little wank glove" will get buffed. Nobody wants to have a dead options.

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1 hour ago, JS said:

If it turns out that Salt is miles behind our new Mascot in almost every possible team lineup (including Angel/Jac), then I don't doubt the "furry little wank glove" will get buffed. Nobody wants to have a dead options.

A more likely scenario is that the new mascot will be on par with Salt but may bring some different play options ... One thing that has been mentioned numerous times is that SF arent looking to parachute the new season models in and replace the existing, they want to make it a decision to take one or the other.

Salt with Angel and/or Jac becomes a lot more useful, particularly with the latter.   Move, dodge Salt, get ganging up bonus, attack, get momentum, Push = profit.  I rarely put INF on him unless he needs to dodge but since Jac has become a regular in my team he's been a lot more useful.   Even with Angel on the team ... Activate Jac, dodge Salt to within 4" of where Angel wants to be, move Angel.

He's also really good in a tournament setting for time efficiency .... "Salt activates, stays where he is" ship clock.

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4 hours ago, Shano said:

He's also really good in a tournament setting for time efficiency .... "Salt activates, stays where he is" ship clock.

Savage, but also classy.

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7 hours ago, sious_69 said:

Salt is actually one of the best Mascots in my opinion, because there is no temptation to give him Influence. 

So you're saying Salt's a good mascot for bad players?

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7 hours ago, sious_69 said:

I just think you need to revise what you are doing with your Mascot. Not every player on the team is there to use Influence. Trying to do so will result in ineffective turns. Salt is actually one of the best Mascots in my opinion, because there is no temptation to give him Influence. He is exceptionally fast, with only Dirge on paper being faster, but with Jac in the team he easily outpaces him.  He can do all the things another player without Influence can do, and is able to avoid being hit due to his innate DEF5.  

Every player may not need inf in a turn but every player should have a compelling reason to be given some or at least something worthy to do with it's activation than just be an activation. Salt has no compelling reason to be given inf almost ever and unlike a model like Coin that at leas gives something back that is worthwhile beyond the basic mechanics, Salt still has bugger all.

That ability to move a ball 18" is in and of itself corner case given it needs a slow defensive player that wont always be in the team at the intended drop point and Salt starting near the ball to pick it up.  Even if you find a place you want the ball dropping that only Salt and Jac can get it to and nail the set up then you have to wait a turn till Salt's next activation to get the ball off him because he cant drop it at the end of Jac's drag.

All our mascot provides reliably is the stuff that every other model in the game provides by being a model in the game.

As at 0 Arm and 8 hits he dies very quickly even with def 5+.

If the intent was for Salt just to be an inf light support peice for the team giving him something that actually makes his support desirable would be nice, even if it was something as plain as Salt providing +2 TAC to the ganging up bonus when attacking.

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@Banjulhu - Pretty much.  Salt is still decent at picking up stray balls.  Also, I like your suggestion about the +2 TAC when ganging-up ("Distracting Chatter", "Cute", etc).  That and 2 Kick would make Salt a little more palatable... Ironically, given the name Salt.

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16 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

Every player may not need inf in a turn but every player should have a compelling reason to be given some or at least something worthy to do with it's activation than just be an activation. Salt has no compelling reason to be given inf almost ever and unlike a model like Coin that at leas gives something back that is worthwhile beyond the basic mechanics, Salt still has bugger all.

I think that the main problem is that we look at Salt in isolation compared to the mascots of other teams rather than looking at the overall balance of the Fishermen.

Salt is what he is so that we have strengths elsewhere in the faction ...  If Salt was better then perhaps the power curve of the Fish would be too high.

I'm not sure whether Fishermen have won any tournaments of note since the errata but we still place consistently and pre-errata were quite dominant ... all the while with Salt being what he is.

As far as I am concerned, the mascot is a must and I try to get as much work out of him as possible with as little resource as possible.  This is generally in the form of Jac and sometimes Angel and their trait benefits with Salt .... Assuming that all you do with Salt is dodge him into melee with whoever Jac is attacking then realistically Jac is pseudo TAC 6 or TAC 8 on a counter-attack - those in themselves are nothing to treat lightly.

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@Shano - I love the silver-lining post, but I still can't help but feel like creating a model with little to no consequential effect on a team is a fundamental problem.  There are a number of ways to 'balance' a team, and creating a player that has little to no role, and little to no love in a game with 50 odd characters that are all full of "Character" and who are dripping with "Style" means that someone, somewhere dropped the ball with Salt.

We've already covered what Salt brings to the table (besides the base abilities that all models bring in virtue of being models in this game.)  Salt is quick when you invest Inf (but slower than 2 other mascots otherwise) and can buff Angel when within 4".  That's it.  The ability on Jac is actually Jac's ability, not Salt's ability.

Not great.  I mean, I still love the little critter despite the obvious and glaring lack of attention to it's rules, but that's because I just love playing the game itself and enjoy the aesthetic and playstyle of the Fishermen.  They would be a more 'fun' team if their mascot could do something directly influential because then it'd feel like I'm playing with a full team instead of having 1 activation that is essentially forced to be 'follows Angel and stays within 4 inches.'

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So what, out of the good abilities of the other players, would you be happy to give up for a better mascot?  I wasn't posting for a "silver-lining" but to get some perspective on the argument about Salt and the balance on the team.  

We are generally better at football overall than other teams, most of our players are faster than other teams, we for the most part have DEF 4, 5 and 6 (with buffs) models and, if you build for it we can output a decent amount of damage without really sacrificing anything that I have already mentioned.

I dont get much work out of Salt but I dont necessarily feel that I need to.   He does what he does and I get on with the job of getting the most out of the other players.

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If the argument is that Salt is a little crap because the rest of the team are so good then that would mean Marbles and Coin are so good because the other Mason and Union players are crap, which is not the case.

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3 minutes ago, Shano said:

I dont get much work out of Salt but I dont necessarily feel that I need to.   He does what he does and I get on with the job of getting the most out of the other players.

I don't think that it's because you don't necessarily feel that you need to, instead, it is that you probably couldn't if you wanted to.  Salt doesn't really do anything well but pick up stray balls and drop them at the feel of our players... and Salt isn't really that great at that either since Salt has such a terrible Kick score.  Loved animal is nice I guess.

I've never put forth the argument that Salt wasn't balanced, or that our team wasn't balanced.  I just believe that there are a number of alternative ways to balance models and teams and while Salt may be 'balanced' for our team, Salt unfortunately is balanced in a way that doesn't add character,flare, or style in the same way that other mascots do.  Someone basically created Salt with little to no ability to 'directly' affect the pitch and then Salt's rules were approved.  It's just a shame is all.  There's some real potential there.

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6 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

If the argument is that Salt is a little crap because the rest of the team are so good then that would mean Marbles and Coin are so good because the other Mason and Union players are crap, which is not the case.

That's not necessarily accurate to the point I am making ....

Fishermen are balanced with Salt being what he is, so are the other guilds as evidenced by the overall results and standings from the tournaments getting played around the place.  

What I am saying is that changes to Salt to make him "better" may result in an imbalance which would then require other players to be adjusted.

This whole thing seems like a "grass is greener" kind of discussion.

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3 minutes ago, Shano said:

Fishermen are balanced with Salt being what he is, so are the other guilds as evidenced by the overall results and standings from the tournaments getting played around the place.  

What I am saying is that changes to Salt to make him "better" may result in an imbalance which would then require other players to be adjusted.

This whole thing seems like a "grass is greener" kind of discussion.

I hear what you're saying here Shano.  I hope you see that I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative here, instead, I'm enjoying our conversation.

I think you're right in terms of balance, but I guess I think better is not what I'm going for here.  Different and more "theme'd" seems like the terminology that I'd prefer to use.  You know what I mean?

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1 minute ago, Ryoshi said:

I think you're right in terms of balance, but I guess I think better is not what I'm going for here.  Different and more "theme'd" seems like the terminology that I'd prefer to use.  You know what I mean?

My money is on "different" but not "better" for the Season 2 mascot, else people would have no reason to take Salt again and I don't think that's what SF would be after.

I also reckon there may be some double meanings with use of the word "Salt" for this particular mascot :)

 

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5 minutes ago, Ryoshi said:

I hear what you're saying here Shano.  I hope you see that I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative here, instead, I'm enjoying our conversation.

I think you're right in terms of balance, but I guess I think better is not what I'm going for here.  Different and more "theme'd" seems like the terminology that I'd prefer to use.  You know what I mean?

It's back to what I was getting at earlier, I may not always want to focus on/use Salt at a given moment but I would like him to do something compelling to make him feel like he has a place in the roster rather than being just a model I'm required to take and compelling does not have to be powerful, just interesting or fun.

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4 hours ago, Shano said:

So what, out of the good abilities of the other players, would you be happy to give up for a better mascot?  I wasn't posting for a "silver-lining" but to get some perspective on the argument about Salt and the balance on the team.  

I don't think balance is (meant to be) so tight any little thing will tip the scales. It's not either exactly right or wildly off. The errata, particularly the nothing-but-nerf Fishermen errata, indicate the devs acknowledge that: they try to get it right as closely as possible, but experience can show that a pretty big shift may be necessary. I get that the idea may have been that Salt should be weak since the rest of the team (particularly Shark) is so good, but "weak" (like Banjulhu said) doesn't have to mean "does pretty much nothing any model without rules of its own and bad stats across most of the board can do". There should be a margin available and even if there wasn't pre-errata (which I don't believe) it's hard to argue there isn't now, post-errata. And other models did get buffed in those same errata, so it's not like that'd be a bad precedent or something.

Plus, looking at the players right now I don't see anyone pointing at any of the Fishermen players to claim he or she is extraordinarily strong. Shark's still a fantastic striker, but compared to other captains he's not out of line. We have lots of very good players, but I don't see a Flint or a Mallet or a Friday or a Vitriol in our team. What's Salt supposed to balance out at this point?

I'm also a bit wary of looking at tournament results too closely just yet, or at least I think we're only now getting to a point where the data becomes somewhat reliable. The devs themselves have said that noticed that the general player base evolved along a similar arc as the playtesters in terms of figuring out what works, what doesn't, and what the best tactics are. It takes time, certainly for some of the harder teams to figure out, to even the playing field in terms of skill and experience.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to get more out of Salt.   I'm just of the opinion that he is what he is and I'll do the best with what I've got rather than pining for a better mascot.

I am managing to at least get some benefit from having Salt on the table compared to what I used to experience.

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Hello Everyone!

Very interesting to read all about my favorite mascot here.  I don't want to disagree with anyone who says Salt is the "worst" mascot in the game, but I do think that this is pretty much a useless way of thinking about the little otter.  As mentioned by a couple of folks, Salt is a Fish team member and functions within that team.  He can't be used like Marbles or Princess.  So there is no point in saying he is "worse" than those other mascots.  He's just Salt.

Personally, I think that the best thing Salt can do for the Fish is to hang out about 10 inches away from your goal, on whichever flank is the strongest (probably where Jac is if you are using him).  When the Fish score, it can be very common that the opposing team gets a chance to retaliate in the same turn.  Since Salt hasn't been doing much, he hasn't activated yet.  You use the goal kick to drop it right in front of Salt, and with Salt's innate mobility he will automatically be in range to jog over and pick up the ball.  If you have been particularly clever and see this coming, giving Salt an influence to dodge or sprint can suddenly be very important.

Keeping in mind that this is ideal, and that ideal situations don't usually happen, there is still a lot of utility here.  Imagine that Shark starts the turn off and puts the ball in the goal.  The ball comes back out, headed for the opposing team's striker.  You activate Kraken and build up some more momentum, maybe knock a couple guys down.  Or maybe Greyscales chases the striker and tries to stop the goal.  Whatever the situation calls for.  Then, a couple activations later, the opponent scores a goal.  Now you goal kick it out to Salt, who grabs the ball and moves it up the wing.  He may even be able to drop it next to Sakana or pass it to someone (though that is admittedly risky).  All of a sudden you are threatening the goal immediately, the second time it the same turn.  If you have used your turn wisely, building momentum you may even be in a position to win initiative the next turn, delaying the goal until the first activation of the following turn.  At that point, maybe Jac has pulled Salt back into position and he is ready to repeat the procedure...which neuters your opponent's ability to score a goal, because they don't want to give the ball back to Salt.

Salt is so innocuous people ignore him, and that is why he can be useful.  He covers a vast amount of space on the pitch, and that has value in and of itself when you are trying to move the ball around.

I know that this scenario is ideal, and that it assumes all kind of things.  That's not the point though.  The point is that imagining this scenario lets you see utility and hopefully helps you imagine how to use Salt.  Each game is different and different matchups call for different strategies, and Salt probably has more or less chance to impact the game depending on the match up.  But it is highly likely that he has been ignored (unless he's been killed, in which case resources have been put into that and hopefully you've scored a couple times).  And if he has been ignored by your opponent, but you have put him in a position to impact the game, you have done well.

I love the little bugger and I honestly do get why people hate on him so much.  I own and play six different teams, so I have played with all the "good" mascots too.  But I really just want to say this:  if you hate him, I encourage you to think about him on his own terms, in the Fishermen line up, and not to waste your time comparing him to other mascots.

 

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