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Harry the Hat role?

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I'm going to be trying Union out for the first time on Monday(we will tweet pics and results @2manmeta). I'm looking at giving Harry a run, so I will let you guys know how that goes.  I will likely be playing against Masons, Butchers or Morticians.  The team I plan to run is Vet Rage, Coin, Decimate,Minx,Gutter, Harry, Avarisse, and Mist.  I will most likely be sitting Avarisse and Mist as I want to give Harry a go.  I'm going to try to leverage his control elements (goad/Molotov) and hopefully get one or two turns of inspiring Hat.  Other than that, not looking to give him a ton of influence or expect him to do the heavy lifting.  Hoping in this support role he will be better than he appears on paper.  Between coin and my other players, I feel like I can give Harry 2 most turns and not feel completely hosed.  I may be jamming a square peg in a round hole here, but really want to give Harry an honest shot.

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16 hours ago, JustinRoley said:

I'm going to be trying Union out for the first time on Monday(we will tweet pics and results @2manmeta). I'm looking at giving Harry a run, so I will let you guys know how that goes.  I will likely be playing against Masons, Butchers or Morticians.  The team I plan to run is Vet Rage, Coin, Decimate,Minx,Gutter, Harry, Avarisse, and Mist.  I will most likely be sitting Avarisse and Mist as I want to give Harry a go.  I'm going to try to leverage his control elements (goad/Molotov) and hopefully get one or two turns of inspiring Hat.  Other than that, not looking to give him a ton of influence or expect him to do the heavy lifting.  Hoping in this support role he will be better than he appears on paper.  Between coin and my other players, I feel like I can give Harry 2 most turns and not feel completely hosed.  I may be jamming a square peg in a round hole here, but really want to give Harry an honest shot.

Coin with Harry is a good shout. Don't give him any influence and put bag of coffers on him for the free bonus time on those 1 dice attempts. That may be the first legit use for him I have heard.

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Ok, just got home from my game night.  I played Vet Rage, Decimate, Gutter, Avarisse(Greede), Harry and Coin.  He played Honour, Harmony, Mist, Flint, Avarisse(Greede), and Marbles.  First off, Rage was amazing, killed Flint and Harmony himself and killed the monkey via a red furied Gutter(my Avarisse ironically killed his Avarisse, and Decimate scored a goal).  I won 12-6(he killed Gutter with back to back Honour and Harmony activations). Enough background, the Hat was a mixed bag.  I ran him on a flank with Coin and only used coffers influence on him(hoping for bonus timed goads and cocktails).  He threatened goad but it never actually was possible to effectively use it, it did force earlier activations on his flank which is something.  On the other hand I used his inspiring Hat every turn but the first, always impacting multiple models with it and when combined with My Gang it was a free "singled out" effectively.  The negative was the coffers influence went into attacks twice (one turn I gave it to Avarisse and left Harry with none, but still his heroic).  Harry's playbook is pretty terrible, even with crazy, my gang and inspiring hat best result I could hope for was a little damage and a push.  So at the end of the day, Harry walked around unimpeded (not worth an attack), and provided TAC buffs while threatening control.  The activation problem becomes, not allocating focus prior, Harry is going second at earliest, severely limiting his options(waiting for Coin).  If you do allocate to him, it is pretty much a wasted influence (going to free bonus time a character play with bag of coffers ideally), because his playbook is the weakest filter you can run influence through on the team.  I'm on the fence right now as I like the heroic and that he is a semi influence battery(the way I'm allocating), but feel like he is probably better as many other players.  I will give him another go, but definitely not a sure thing.  

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I played with 'Hat' and frankly either I'm not getting him or he's proper rubbish. I'm not a fan of Crazy - the rule makes you think awesome things will happen but then they stretch the playbook out to compensate so actually you achieve the same or less than a normal player. Seems a weird rule - don't get it. Surely taking damage should give you  a bonus, but getting +3 TAC when your playbook is stretched +3 columns (which is the same as -6 TAC) seems a bad trade. Harry has few useful momentous results, he only generates 1 INF, and his hat aura is small. 

I can't ever see a reason to play the Hat ever - he's the new Fangtooth.

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On March 23, 2016 at 4:21 AM, EpicChris said:

I played with 'Hat' and frankly either I'm not getting him or he's proper rubbish. I'm not a fan of Crazy - the rule makes you think awesome things will happen but then they stretch the playbook out to compensate so actually you achieve the same or less than a normal player. Seems a weird rule - don't get it. Surely taking damage should give you  a bonus, but getting +3 TAC when your playbook is stretched +3 columns (which is the same as -6 TAC) seems a bad trade. Harry has few useful momentous results, he only generates 1 INF, and his hat aura is small. 

I can't ever see a reason to play the Hat ever - he's the new Fangtooth.

I had similar feelings about his playbook(I greatly disagree on Fangtooth though, he is sweet!). Looking at the player as an influence filter, Harry is probably the weakest filter we could use.  His results, even at the top with Crazy up are not great, and likely outcomes are terrible.  Couple that with the lack of meaningful momentum generation, and I still believe the only way to get any value is using him for character plays (control piece) and an occasional Hat.  That being said, after playing that route, it still wasn't good, just the best I could muster.  Just my opinion.

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I've been using him in brewer's with tapper,hooper, spigot, friday. I've only been able to pull it off once thus far but inspiring hat combinded with commanding aura is pretty cool. +2TAC and +1DMG very nice

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Brewers seems like the one Guild where he could find a place. He can get Stoker's damage bonus going via Molotov and would add further to those TAC bonuses - aggregation of marginal gains and all that...

I feel he will probably get a buff at some stage though. Probably something low key like Stoic

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Ok, first game with Harry. Used him in Pin Vice Cogs against Hammer Masons.

Good Points

  • He kept Hammer off Pin Vice's back for a turn via Goad
  • He delivered 2 momentum via Rising Anger every turn through being a punching bag

Bad Points

  • He got taken out twice (the 2nd time won the game for my opponent)
  • He got a momentous double push against Hammer which was immediately cancelled because of Stoic (1 damage would also have been cancelled and Hammer didn't have the ball so couldn't tackle).

Lessons

  •  If you're going to Goad someone, ideally use it and then run away so you can't be charged
  • With 3+ DEF, 1 ARM and no tricks like Tough Hide, those 19 health evaporate pretty quickly

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If he had any ONE of the followinf he would be a contender:

2" reach

2/4 inf

tough hide

As he is though - he really does evertthing a little, and a lot of nothing  

 

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I must say I like trying to find uses for models that others haven't got many nice things to say about...

so this is where I'm at it theory crafting for Harry...

Would it be worthwhile at all to try to take a Union team that focused on repositioning and movement debuffs...

I would say for captain, I think either V.Rage or Blackheart as both have the auras that stack with the Hat...

but then try Gutter for her 4" reposition, Harry for his Molotov and Goad, Fangtooth for rough ground, and maybe Hemlocke for blind... I'd want Strongbox for the additional area buff but also see Coin being universally helpful with the influence and Bonus Time... so I guess pick your favorite =p

 

I'm not saying it's a good team.. and you don't have the kicker you want.... you aren't taking your favorite damage dealers... but might be interesting (or at least a challenge) to try it vs some less-experienced players (or even against a weak melee team like Shark's Fish) and see if you can stack some move debuff effects, Goad, or Pulls on a few key models while V.Rage chops 'em up or Gutter or Hemlocke scoot away to score... 

 

Thoughts? worth trying for the sake of trying? or total rubbish and I should just give up on 'da Hat dat could have been...

 

 

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After watching paddo's video, I was thinking, maybe Harry could get different abilities when he's hired to different teams? Like +1 damage for butchers, tough hide for Brewers, repair for engineers, replace Molotov with fire blast for alchemists. Something like that, maybe he would need an extra card to show those traits. Not sure about three row playbook, might be a little imbalanced. Definitely give him a shorter and less crappy, more versatile playbook.

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Many Union players are better in other Guild's simply because many of their Auras don't specify friendly Guild (*sigh*). But Harry...urgh. The annoying thing is he has some very interesting tools. Goad and Burning are pretty nice movement abilities to bring. Rising Anger is also quite tasty. But the overall package is terrible. He's too general in what he seeks to do - and annoying design decisions were made for him - long playbook with Crazy (why is he crazy??), Heroic play to activate a mediocre buff, his stats making him a punching bag, his low INF generation making him a drain on the team. He's just bad. I would take Fangtooth before him, and I hate Fangtooth (he's actually ok now, but I hate the way Foul Odor works mechanically - it's janky and both players often forget it).

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So i did some thinking, and this is what i came up with -

Harry the Hat

Stats mostly stay the same. TAC 5, get rid of crazy. INF 2/4.

Playbook shortened to 5. 3 columns on top, so it looks kind of like a hat. one Guild Ball in the middle of the playbook. Hat aura can stay the same, maybe it can be activated on a Guild Ball.

When Harry is hired to different teams, he gains different traits:

Butchers: Smell Blood, cause bleed on a Guild Ball.

Brewers: Tough Hide, ??? on a Guild Ball.

Alchemists: Burning Passion, cause burning on a Guild Ball.

Engineers: Fixer, Singled Out (?)  on a Guild Ball.

Union: Football Legend

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Bit of a necro but has anyone worked out anything useful to do with Harry (other than a paperweight)?

He just doesn't seem to bring enough for him to replace anyone.

Drop Crazy and three columns of his playbook and turn him into a mascot?

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I managed to use him fairly successfully just now, but it wasn't pretty and looking at it now I would have preferred to take Mist.

 

TLDR; I ignored Harry's playbook and plays. He absorbs an impressive amount of damage for a 3+/1 guy. I see him as needing no influence, only momentum, to be useful. I put no influence on him this game and didn't feel worried about throwing him in for ganging up. I don't think it's a coincedence that he has the same move rate as VRage (5/7). I suspect he's supposed to tag along with him, giving Rage buffs just by his presence, causing AOEs to gift you four MP whilst being a big hit point bag of meat.

I still think my team what have been better served by Mist's 2" reach and abilities that would have retrieved the ball for a second goal, but I'm not so ready to write him off just yet.

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