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      Training Ground   02/14/2018

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darkstar

Union - Season 2 Player Updates

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i have been to the excellent event at Britcon over the weekend and during the event it was certainly noted certain Union team members had quite a big showing. Steamforged that certain players would be updated for season 2, while not 100% some of likely changes will be:

 

  • Hemlock - moved to def 5+
  • Gutter - no damage on chain grab, life gain down to 1 point
  • Mist - some playbook plays that are currently momentous will lose it
  • Decimate - same as mist

 

 

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i have been to the excellent event at Britcon over the weekend and during the event it was certainly noted certain Union team members had quite a big showing. Steamforged that certain players would be updated for season 2, while not 100% some of likely changes will be:

 

  • Hemlock - moved to def 5+
  • Gutter - no damage on chain grab, life gain down to 1 point
  • Mist - some playbook plays that are currently momentous will lose it
  • Decimate - same as mist

 

 

 I don't think there will be these changes, I think they are pretty balanced and they have said that one player per team will get some sort of change.

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Fair enough, though the above came from the head playtester. We will just need to wait and see.

 

It Is an Interesting subject, to be fair. I think It will be hard to change a lot of players because they already own the original player cards, If It an odd player they will Just errata It as they have done. I played against my mates Union quite a few games and don't seem OP.  

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I don't see any of those players as OP but I do hear it a lot on the forums and in podcasts. 

Hemlocke: I have used with my Alchemists because I like playing the AoE condition game. She gets targeted a lot and my opponents use things like Dirty Knives to reduce her Def while not having to attack her at all. Once she is on Def 5, her game is over. If she loses Def she needs more HP. Def 5 might move her behind her team where a defensive midfielder should be though. I find with 6 Def I tend to put her in places she would never go with 5.

Gutter: What is it that she does that is too powerful? Chain Grab sounds like it would be painful and 1 Dam seems reasonable. I have never used her but as an Alchemist player please don't take away her Scything Blow. :P

 

Mist: I could see the GB result becoming non momentous but I don't think it is necessary. It won't change how he is played.

Decimate: Momentous Tackles can go without hurting her too much. I have used her in my Alchemists to generate Momentum because I don't get any from AoE's. As long as she keeps her 1 or 2 damage Momentous results I will still be happy. This is another character that I hear about being too good but can't work out why. Unless generating Momentum is considered OP.

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Given the player base won't have even got the maximum out the base teams it seems a bit early to get the nerf bat out. Great example on super smash bro's computer game which didn't change for 10yrs but the meta/character power levels were perceived to fluctuate massively over that time.

But most of those don't bother me other than gutters lifebloom nerf I don't think it would change how I play with them.

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There are certain Union players who are constantly seen in some guild teams, or across almost every team that can use them, gutter. The feeling is that some subtle tweaks will nudge them into alignment slightly better. They are very subtle changes and I'm sure, based on conversations with the guys at SF they are very conscious of balance and will look to maintain it on the basis of the feedback they are getting and the testing they are doing.

All in all I think this is a good thing, and certainly a laudable aim, but can be difficult to do without making things overly complicated. Personally I have confidence in them, it's their livelihood after all.

Also you can't keep everyone happy all the time...

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Well this is very interesting, if they going to take away with one hand they need to give with the other.

 

Hemlock is Def 6 but only 10 health. Compare her to Calculus, Hemlock is moch weaker in health and TAC to make the difference.

 

Mist losing a few momentus plays is ok as not critical to her play - as long as she keeps her momentus tackle.

 

Gutter weakening her chain grab, ok not a biggie, if her lifedrinker is going down her other stats need to improve to compensate a little. Maybe change what teams she can plays for.

 

Decimate - maybe lose one momentus play but shes not that bad. Maybe the best alteration is what teams she plays for.

 

Also got to see the whole picture, is the Union are getting "tweaked" who else in the other teams is getting "tweaked"....

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I'm not sure that the damage on Chain Grab is the problem?? I think the problem is the repeated use, so you can drag 3 players into places they don't want to be (i.e. in charge range of Butchers).

 

I play Union and hearing this makes me very sad - I fought their cause over the weekend - but the truth is I can see the point - Decimate played well is VERY good, Gutter can take certain teams to 11, Hemlocke is too good at 6+ (she tanks way too far up field). I wish they weren't nerfed but the fact is, the Union affect the flow of the whole game and if they are too good then the game suffers.

 

What I want to see is all HP and LPs changed to friendly Guild only - that way some of the problem with Union support is lessened as they become an alternative rather than better choice.

 

I also would like to see certain nerfs in some guilds (Midas and Shark, I'm looking at you) but that will take much longer play testing time so I guess we'll have to wait.

 

Bottom line: A balanced game is a better game - both at tournaments and in your living room. And a team dedicated to making changes when required sounds better to me than the GW approach of leave it and suffer.

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The more I think about it the more I think a large part of the issue would be sorted if buffs and LPs were faction only. In the beta Blackheart has Owner as a trait but got taken away (guess it was too powerful with players like Decimate and Gutter) but Ox's similar trait works on them - work that out lol.

 

Still think a small group of players accross all the teams need minior adjusting (after the baove) but nothing too much.

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I would look at The Owner before anything else If it's a butchers problem. I always prefer fixing the root problem rather than its symptoms.

The only one of the four who I think warrants a change is Hemlocke, and only because her stats wound up encouraging people to use her in a way unintended. She was supposed to be an annoying support player, but her def and a decent kick makes people use her as a very deft ball handler. I'd gimp her kick rather than her def. that would get her function back to intention.

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Personally I hate Decimate but I think while Hemlocke is tricky to catch once you do she is going down. Def 5 would be horrendous for her - and this is coming from someone that can't even use her! I agree with the kick though; she should be support, not a striker....

 

My main issue with Chain Grab is more fluff based: Gutter does 1Dmg with a chain while Kraken hurls a harpoon through you and it does nothing?! (Also, it costs him more to do it and with any subsequent damage she generates momentum (and heals) while he doesn't).

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Going down with Def 6+? You roll better then me sir! 10 wounds at 1 wound a hit (unless you can buff somehow) with a 4hp heal in the wings has meant I've only ever lost Hemlocke to Butchers.

 

Realistically, 6+ is making her too tanky - she can carry the ball into hostile territory and it's hard to even tackle her! No stat should naturally be 6+.

 

Not everyone will agree on the tweaks they'd like to see. That's the nature of any game. Some will think X is better than Y, others will say that's not true and give reasons (and suggest Z) - but the first camp won't be swayed. It's happened before and it'll happen again.

 

All you can hope for is great play testing, updates as required and deal with what's left.

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I agree with Phil on the Hemlocke idea. ATM, she's almost as good a striker as Mist which seems way off the mark for a support character.

On the Gutter thing, if Chain Grab is the problem, making it once a turn like Where'd They Go? would be a fairly simple fix. I don't actually own her so this is just my thoughts based on what I've seen. I am gonna try her out next game though as I want to see for myself how 'broken' she is with the Butchers.

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Step 1: Activate Ox's LP

Step 2: Move Gutter within 4" BUT NOT 2"!

Step 3: Chain grab something (peferably with a MOM boost)

Step 4: Hit it and trigger scything blow, do 5 DMG + 1 MOM

Step 5: Repeat until you run out of INF or everything in 2" is dead

Step 6: Profit? 

 

This isn't why she's so good, but it's pretty amusing! That one game you get a perfect 2" storm of Scything Blows and Ox taking out 2 players from full health will make it all worth it.

 

The main thing is if your opponent isn't watching and moves a model within 14" of Gutter you can setup Ox and Boar to charge and mangle it on Turn 1. She's a threat extender.

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It seems that Decimate and Gutters problem is hanging around with the Butchers. They are fine on their own but in Ox's aura they become monsters.

I think IF there are any real balance issues than its excatly because of  that multi-use of the union-players...

The "regulare" guild players are balanced as they have to work proper with only one team captain heroic/legendary play.

with the union-"working for many" aspect its a hell more difficult to make them interesting for all possible teams...so it might be that one union player works dangerous good with one team while the very same stats only work descent with another...

This aspect might get even more getting an issue when the new team captains will released...

Tricky situation here, but overall I agree a "100%-overpowerd"-sign I dont see right now in the game....there are soooo many fine rule-aspects to discover as we all are new to the game that it might be unwise to start re-balancing too early

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From the conversation I had with SF the issue with Gutters chain grab did seem to be its interaction with the Butchers in the main, in relation changes to some of the Union players in general it was indicated that player balance is more important here than for other guild players due to sheer range of interactions these players have outside of their own guild. 

 

Personally I think that if any model becomes present in every team that can take them they need some form of tweaking to keep the game interesting. 

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Going down with Def 6+? You roll better then me sir! 

 

I should have said 'once you've caught her and knocked her over'...! My dice aren't generally that good either. 

 

And I agree to a certain extent with the natural 6+ avoidance too. On 10 wds though 5+ makes her a little too vulnerable so not sure how you'd balance that without upping health?

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As a union player this doesn't excite (or please me) if true, as I feel the stats as they are seem reasonable, but looking at it objectively it's probably when the individuals are in other teams that the changes become necessary

That's the struggle with having a team that shares its players around

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Limiting the number of "chain grabs " to 1 per turn might work.

Another thought might be 1 Union player per team, except their own.

Bill

 

The team selection or how many Union per Guild won't be changing, In my opinion.

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It's bad crack if they're going to start altering cards this early.

Game has only been out a couple of months and as a previous poster said most players dont have enough experience with each (mini) player to start shouting OP.

Making us buy replacement cards just a few months after release leaves a bad taste to me and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone.

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They're only addressing a few points where they feel the game is unbalanced, based on tournaments/games/hearing back from thousands of people. If Gutter is in every team that can take her at every tournament, clearly there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Same goes for other players too.

The players aren't getting heavy nerfed, and of course you don't have to buy replacement cards. Everything will be available online for free, as it is at the moment.

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But there's only been a handful of tournaments so far and I haven't seen any complaints about gutter appear outside this thread.

Where are the thousands of people complaining?

The thing is, the game is only a few months old. People will most likely adapt to deal with these players.

And like in other game systems that haven't felt the need to make gamers buy new cards every few months, as new seasons at added and new players introduced more variety in lists will start to show.

As for everything available online, I don't want to play the game with crappy bits of paper, that's why I've shelled out about £500 in the last 2 months on teams, tokens, building goals and tables.

Don't want to have to spend another £30 or so for replacement cards that probably are unwarranted.

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