Jump to content
MrBeldaeva

AoE's and Pushing

Recommended Posts

Morning all,

 

Had this come up yesterday, and I couldn't find a clear ruling one way or the other -

Calculus' AoE causes poison to models entering or ending their activation in it. If a model is pushed (via whatever means) into the AoE, do they suffer said poison effect?

The argument is that the model is not entering the AoE in their activation, so they're not "entering" it. While it could be easy to give a ruling for one side or the other, would be nice to get a clear ruling here to let the guys know =)

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short answer...no

When a model is pushed outside their activation it is not considered their activation so the poison wouldn't trigger.  

That's what I thought, but I could see the argument for them "entering" the AoE, so I figured I'd ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This came up  in a tourney game recently. My thought was that the sentence was inclusive "Entering.....blah blah blah........during ACTIVATION." It was then discussed whether the entering was actually a separate trigger to the ending activation part. Still not sure so would love some clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect AOE suffer the poison condition."

These are separate triggers; a model that enters the AOE for any reason at any time will suffer the condition. A model that ends it's activation in the AOE will suffer the condition.

(edit for clarity) This is a carry over in terminology and ability parsing from Warmachine. If it were to be the other way it would be worded similar to "Models entering the AOE during their activation, or that end their activation within the AOE ... "

Edited by Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect AOE suffer the poison condition."

These are separate triggers; a model that enters the AOE for any reason at any time will suffer the condition. A model that ends it's activation in the AOE will suffer the condition.

(edit for clarity) This is a carry over in terminology and ability parsing from Warmachine. If it were to be the other way it would be worded similar to "Models entering the AOE during their activation, or that end their activation within the AOE ... "

Hmm...I can see how you could interpret it that way. 

 

Jamie can we get some clarification on the intention of the wording? :) Pretty please...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm...I can see how you could interpret it that way. 

 

Jamie can we get some clarification on the intention of the wording? :) Pretty please...

Also this.

It may not be terrible to get the intent down to stop shenanigans later ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would assume this is a close reference for rules as intended.

This is from the collected clarifications thread.
Entering an Aura:
Defined as the following: 'When a model Advances or Repositions and that movement takes the model 'within' another player's aura'.
Mercury and Calculus can’t move up to other people to have them enter it.


You can push players into Auras to set them on fire or Poison them so pushing into an AoE I would assume would be the same. That is how we play it in our group.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never known it to be played other than if you move in for any reason you are affected. There is no link between entering and activation.

The 'ending their activation' wording is there to stop the situation where if you move into it you are affected but if you stand still in it you are not.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that is correct. Entering is not exclusive to activation. If I push you into a flaming pit of fire, you're getting burned.

It affects any model that enters by any means until JP says otherwise. If he has said that somewhere can someone point me to it - the new forums are a little confusing.

Note on a Grammar Tzar point the wording should have used commas to make it clear (go go Oxford comma): A Model entering, or ending it's activation, in this on-going...

Commas are power yo.

 

Edited by EpicChris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but the short answer has to be wrong.

 

if something is poisoned or on fire and a model is pushed into it, they suffer the effect.

otherwise there would be absolutely no use for stokers 'burn the floor' - why would a model ever enter an obstruction when they could stay 1" away and still benefit from the cover. But if you could push them into it then it would have uses, stopping people hugging cover.

 

I think the term, "ongoing effect" is the key here, models entering a affected area suffer the effect.

 

jk

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The short answer given above is incorrect.

This was ruled on in the previous forum.  Check the collected clarifications thread here, under entering an aura.

http://guildball.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1001-collected-clarifications/?fromsearch=1

It may have been transferred across to these now.  I've not checked.

You get the effect of the aura the moment you enter the aura.  How or why you enter it doesn't matter.

if a model dodges into the aura it takes the effect.  If a model is pushed into the aura it takes the effect.  If a model ends its activation in the aura I t takes the effect.  

The only time it doesn't trigger is if it's the model with the aura that's moved such that an opposing player is within the aura at the end of the player with the auras move. In this instance The opposing player hasn't entered it, but rather the aura has been 'positioned' to affect them.  

So so for example calculus moves to engage Balista.  Ballista doesn't take the effect of the aura as its calculus that moved such that Balista is in the aura but Balista hasn't entered it.  If however, midis hit Balista, got a push result and chose to push Balista to within 1" of calculus Balista would take the effect as he has entered the aura. 

Edited by WCWW podcast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The short answer given above is incorrect.

This was ruled on in the previous forum.  Check the collected clarifications thread here, under entering an aura.

It may have been transferred across to these now.  I've not checked.

You get the effect of the aura the moment you enter the aura.  How or why you enter it doesn't matter.

if a model dodges into the aura it takes the effect.  If a model is pushed into the aura it takes the effect.  If a model ends its activation in the aura I t takes the effect.  

The only time it doesn't trigger is if it's the model with the aura that's moved such that an opposing player is within the aura at the end of the player with the auras move. In this instance The opposing player hasn't entered it, but rather the aura has been 'positioned' to affect them.  

So so for example calculus moves to engage Balista.  Ballista doesn't take the effect of the aura as its calculus that moved such that Balista is in the aura but Balista hasn't entered it.  If however, midis hit Balista, got a push result and chose to push Balista to within 1" of calculus Balista would take the effect as he has entered the aura. 

It's an AOE we're talking about not an Aura

Sorry, but the short answer has to be wrong.

 

if something is poisoned or on fire and a model is pushed into it, they suffer the effect.

otherwise there would be absolutely no use for stokers 'burn the floor' - why would a model ever enter an obstruction when they could stay 1" away and still benefit from the cover. But if you could push them into it then it would have uses, stopping people hugging cover.

 

I think the term, "ongoing effect" is the key here, models entering a affected area suffer the effect.

 

jk

 

Got models hiding in a large terrain piece? Burn the floor. Cover more area than an AoE.  

The confusion wasn't over whether or not it was an ongoing effect. But rather whether the use of the clause 'their activation' applied to both the 'ending' and 'entering' clauses. If it does then being pushed out of activation wouldn't trigger the condition to be applied. It's since been clarified by many people that they are indeed not meant to be read together but as separate clauses so I'm happy with that. 


 

I would assume this is a close reference for rules as intended.

This is from the collected clarifications thread.
Entering an Aura:
Defined as the following: 'When a model Advances or Repositions and that movement takes the model 'within' another player's aura'.
Mercury and Calculus can’t move up to other people to have them enter it.


You can push players into Auras to set them on fire or Poison them so pushing into an AoE I would assume would be the same. That is how we play it in our group.

 

Again...not an Aura...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an AOE we're talking about not an Aura

Got models hiding in a large terrain piece? Burn the floor. Cover more area than an AoE.  
The confusion wasn't over whether or not it was an ongoing effect. But rather whether the use of the clause 'their activation' applied to both the 'ending' and 'entering' clauses. If it does then being pushed out of activation wouldn't trigger the condition to be applied. It's since been clarified by many people that they are indeed not meant to be read together but as separate clauses so I'm happy with that. 


 

Again...not an Aura

I know it is not an Aura. It is relevant because it would be consistent to the Aura ruling to have it applied to AoE's as well.

Take Mercury for example. He has the Burning Spirit aura. It reads "Enemy models entering or starting their activation in this Aura suffer the burning condition."
Fire Blast reads, "Models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect AOE suffer the burning condition."

The aura has been ruled that pushes are considered to be entering the aura. I would extrapolate due to the 'Models entering' clause on each of the plays that the rule would be the same for AoE's. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all this pushing posts up and down makes reading the chain really hard to follow.

My view on the OP regarding AOEs is as teh key trigger is during "their activation" therefore if they dodge into it they suffer the effect, but if pushed into it they they dont.

I could be wrong but we shall see what the final word is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

all this pushing posts up and down makes reading the chain really hard to follow.

My view on the OP regarding AOEs is as teh key trigger is during "their activation" therefore if they dodge into it they suffer the effect, but if pushed into it they they dont.

I could be wrong but we shall see what the final word is.

I always change it to read by date. Right hand corner under the question at the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Got models hiding in a large terrain piece? Burn the floor. Cover more area than an AoE.  
The confusion wasn't over whether or not it was an ongoing effect. But rather whether the use of the clause 'their activation' applied to both the 'ending' and 'entering' clauses. If it does then being pushed out of activation wouldn't trigger the condition to be applied. It's since been clarified by many people that they are indeed not meant to be read together but as separate clauses so I'm happy with that. 


 

 

why on earth would you put a model 'into' a piece of terrain? You benefit from the cover within an inch without paying the movement penalty, therefore the burn the floor would be completely useless unless a model could be pushed into the terrain and get burnt.

it simply doesn't make sense that a model wouldn't suffer the effects of an AOE or Aura if they were pushed into it. 

 

Having read your post again, it seems you might be agreeing with me? Apologies if that is the case. I just can't see a use for burn the floor if you can't push them in to set them alight. 

 

Edited by Puber88

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i cant tell whats going on with the post order so I'm going to post this anyway, having written it.

The fact the op was about an AOE not an aura is irrelevant. The wording is the same on AOE's, the aura which is the subject of the linked clarification and stokers character play with respect to entering;

Poisonous fumes: Enemy Models entering or ending their activation in this aura suffer the poison condition.

Noxious blast...models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect are suffer poison the poison condition...

Burn the floor:....All models entering or ending their activation within the terrain piece suffer the burning condition.

The example i linked to from the collected clarifications makes it clear that entering does not have to be voluntary or indeed during the models activation.  pushes count as entering. thus it follows that if a model is pushed into an AOE, or a terrain piece which is on fire it take the effect triggered by entering since it has entered it  

With respect to entering a terrain piece.  

The terrain rules state that you 'move within' rough and fast terrain to trigger their effects.  Thus you can be within and ergo you must enter them to be within them.

they also state that you can be within an obstruction (when you are traversing them) however they also go on to state that when forced to move into contact with an obstruction models immediately stop.  Thus you cant be pushed into (or over) an obstruction. 

The rules state that a forest is a unique zone of rough terrain and that you can be within a forest.  

Thus you can be pushed to be within an area of rough terrain, an area of fast terrain or a forest and at the point you count as being within it you have entered it. If its on fire you are on fire. 

 

 

 

Edited by WCWW podcast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i cant tell whats going on with the post order so I'm going to post this anyway, having written it.

The fact the op was about an AOE not an aura is irrelevant. The wording is the same on AOE's, the aura which is the subject of the linked clarification and stokers character play with respect to entering;

Poisonous fumes: Enemy Models entering or ending their activation in this aura suffer the poison condition.

Noxious blast...models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect are suffer poison the poison condition...

Burn the floor:....All models entering or ending their activation within the terrain piece suffer the burning condition.

The example i linked to from the collected clarifications makes it clear that entering does not have to be voluntary or indeed during the models activation.  pushes count as entering. thus it follows that if a model is pushed into an AOE, or a terrain piece which is on fire it take the effect triggered by entering since it has entered it  

With respect to entering a terrain piece.  

The terrain rules state that you 'move within' rough and fast terrain to trigger their effects.  Thus you can be within and ergo you must enter them to be within them.

they also state that you can be within an obstruction (when you are traversing them) however they also go on to state that when forced to move into contact with an obstruction models immediately stop.  Thus you cant be pushed into (or over) an obstruction. 

The rules state that a forest is a unique zone of rough terrain and that you can be within a forest.  

Thus you can be pushed to be within an area of rough terrain, an area of fast terrain or a forest and at the point you count as being within it you have entered it. If its on fire you are on fire. 

 

 

 

I understand that, what I'm getting at, is if stoker burns an obstruction (a piece of terrain) can a model be pushed into contact with it and then be set alight?

 

it seems this would be the case

 

jk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Errata wording suggests a model can't be forced to enter the aura via the poisoning/burning model moving into base contact so that would rule out dodges into combat, but I feel the push has to cause it, that's the benefit of the push 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really do think understand how you could possibly interpret this thar you wouldn't take the effect on a push. the argument seems to be that it has to be "during" your activation, but the word "during" doesn't appear in these wordings. if you take out the "or ending" from the wording it doesn't make any sense: "entering their activation". Therefore the bit that you need to remove either the or is "ending their activation" to see what the two different criteria are. otherwise you're just adding words that aren't there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Noxious Blast wording:

"Models entering or ending their activation in this ongoing-effect AoE suffer the poison condition."

If a model is pushed into the AoE, or in any way moves into the AoE out of activation, it has entered the AoE and will trigger the effect. The 'enter' and 'end activation' triggers are separate.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×