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Danny posted a topic in Dark Souls DiscussionHello Everyone. I've been playing with spreadsheets again. The question dawned on me that different character combinations with their own personal loot biases would have an effect on what loot became usable when picked up, depending on how many people were playing and what characters they chose, so I've made some tables to dish out some juicy statistics (I don't know why I used the word "juicy" there, but I'm leaving it in.) There are a total of 80 cards that appear in the deck in a 4 player game (a revision to my last post as I counted wrong) here are some stats about what loot becomes available early game to players (based around 8 or less souls leveling cost, or "1 clear of the dungeon before the mini-boss" So these numbers will be a little higher than my last post as well) dependent on what classes are playing: Table 1, for single player games, is pretty straight forwards: 1 Player Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Treasures 29 29 27 28 Odds: 44.62% 44.60% 41.50% 43.00% Deck Size 65 As you can see, the odds aren't great for getting anything usable that you could level into using just 8 souls, luckily though in solo you start with 16 souls to help balance this out. Table 2, for 2 player games: 2 Players Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Odds Key Warrior X 40 35 35 35 50.00% Assassin 40 X 40 35 36 51.40% Herald 35 40 X 36 40 57.10% Knight 35 35 36 X Deck Size 70 Cross reference the player you're playing with, with your buddy and boom! there's your number. As there's extra class starting gear in the deck the odds change, as you can see from the key on the right. The odds are a bit better here, chances are 50/50 the first treasure you draw will be equippable within 8 souls. not great odds, though... and you don't get any starting souls, either. Honestly, these are probably the worst odds you'll encounter in the post, as you'll see when you continue reading on. It's looking like the hardest play through for getting gear would be an unlucky game Warrior and knight, or warrior and herald, since most of the cards they can both use overlap. Table 3, for 3 Player games: 3 Players not playing: Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Treasures 43 39 42 44 Odds: 57.70% 52.00% 56.00% 58.60% Deck Size 75 As you can see here, not only are the odds of drawing usable loot better here, but you'll also be earning 6 souls per room, so by the time you've cleared room 2 there's a better than 50/50 chance you'll have upgraded your first item. The Assassin seems to be the "booster" character here, when he's not in the fight the loot combo is at its worst. Table 4, for 4 player games: 4 Players 46 Odds: 57.50% Deck Size 80 Pretty self explanatory. Not only the third highest chance of getting loot you can use within 8 souls, but at a payout of 8 souls per room you could get lucky and find a treasure chest that contains something somebody could wear immediately. I actually haven't played a 4 player game yet, but if this was the focus of their playtesting I can see why they'd think it was balanced overall, since the odds are pretty darned good, and when you do get unlucky, you earn the most souls to keep buying more treasure. Section 2 Upgrades: RNG Hero, or RNG villain? As I've discussed before, a large chunk of the unusable gear is actually upgrades. These awesome cards that make you incredible in the late game can bog you down by taking your money and giving you no reward if you are in your starting gear, since those items cannot be upgraded. I decided to take a look at what the decks would look like if you included upgrades as items that can apply to your starting gear. the same stat requirement checks are included in the tables below. They make for an interesting read IMO: 1 Player Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Treasures 44 44 42 42 Odds: 67.69% 67.69% 64.62% 64.62% Deck Size 65 2 Players Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Odds Key Warrior X 56 50 50 50 71.43% Assassin 56 X 56 51 51 72.86% Herald 50 56 X 51 56 80.00% Knight 50 51 51 X Deck Size 70 3 Players not playing: Warrior Assassin Herald Knight Treasures 58 54 59 60 Odds: 77.33% 72.00% 78.67% 80.00% Deck Size 75 4 Players 62 Odds: 77.50% Deck Size 80 Wow, eh? Just imagine it. Entire decks of common loot you could actually use as soon as you purchase it! Of course, it would be stupid to attach an upgrade to everyone's starting weapons. Then you'd have none for later! But it does make me wonder if this was something they've changed during the balancing of the game. I haven't playtested this, but I can see how a good RNG run would be pretty OP pretty fast, especially for a 4 player game. However, don't forget you'd be getting duplicate loot, or weapons, armour, spells etc. that you didn't want to upgrade into in the deck. But This could possibly be the key to ending the early game grind. Additionally: If you were upgrading your starting weapons, then this would not remove the incentive to upgrade your gear further as you progress, you would still need better gear, higher levels and more upgrades for your late game gear too, otherwise you'll just have the better gear with no upgrades, or starting gear that does +1 damage, or +1 black dice damage. Final note: I've been meaning to mention that I've included Embers as an "upgrade" item in both this and my last post. I personally do class them as an upgrade, however you could class the decks as having 4 cards fewer total for your odds when you do have an ember (since you'd re-draw) which would slightly raise all of these odds until your first death. If you have no ember though, then these odds stand. Hope this has been helpful and/or interesting to everyone considering making new HRs, or wondering what the balance is like for those of you who haven't played yet.