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Lemminkäinen last won the day on January 26

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  1. But do you think that WMH has a higher skill factor than GB? Especially if you discount list building and knowledge (since those aren't affected by dice and happen separately)? My hypothesis is that since the skill factor is so high, the dice spikes are especially annoying (which could be seen as a bit backwards).
  2. I think that part of it is that the skill factor in the game is so high so that when you truly do lose to dice, you feel more cheated than in a more random game like 40k or whatever. And I don't think that the argument that a 4.3% chance of a freak KO making your Captain waste a ton of Influence is bad play on your part is very strong. If you manage to win a game without ever taking even a small chance of dice failing you, you're a pretty godlike/your opponent is a bag of potatoes. For example, you could never try to shoot a goal. Yes, you can mitigate all that stuff but sometimes your best bet ("correct play") is to take a small risk of failure and sometimes that small risk materializes into failure. Nothing weird about that being frustrating, I think.
  3. PVC Fishers and Butchers

    It is a very cool game. It has similar emphasis on positioning as GB does in that almost every model can threaten 20cm but can move 30cm and the table is only 60x60cm so it's a very "gamey" game in that sense. And a single game is only 45 minutes to one hour so it's nicely light in that sense. Oh, and a full tournament sized list is between three and six models most of the time (you can build an eight model extreme build but most of the time you're operating in the lower end of that three to six). It's a shame that it is so unknown outside of France. Ah, that's probably a cultural difference thing! Here, if I wanted someone to start Blood Bowl, I'd advice them to buy a team and that's it. In my gaming circle there's basically no game where the number of rulebooks owned matches the number of people playing. The people who like books (like me!) buy them and learn the rules and loan the books around if needed. But I can easily see that going different in other environments (like more formal gaming clubs, for example). But summa summarum, I very much agree that the total investment for starting GB is on the very lowest end of the spectrum when it comes to minis games and I guess that was the actual argument unless one wants to start splitting hairs about which one is the very cheapest (like I ended up doing)... I do think, though, that even though the investment is small, the perceived value of a PVC team is lower than it is for a metal team for many people and the price hike for the PVC teams is pretty large so that might be costing SFG some sales. Pure speculation, mind, and they naturally have way more data to use for analysis so this is mostly idle conversation on my part.
  4. PVC Fishers and Butchers

    Well, Eden has something like a hundred tournament a year with the bigger ones having 75 or more players. Of course it's mostly limited to France and enjoys much less popularity outside of it. Also, how is Bloodbowl more expensive than GB? A Dwarf team with 12 models, three balls, and plastic RR and Score counters is 25 euros. GB is nearly four times as much and the models are PVC as opposed to HIPS. That's downright terrible! And Necromunda gangs are 32.50€ for ten models. GB is three times more expensive - though that's for 12 models rather than 10 so let's be super conservative and say that it is only twice as expensive. That's still not very good.
  5. Mulligans during play.

    Is it really true that people don't learn from rewinded mistakes? I'm not convinced that there is such a huge difference as is being generally painted between a mistake that lost you a game and a rewinded mistake that would've lost you a game.
  6. PVC Fishers and Butchers

    Blood Bowl? Shadespire (a bit simlar to Godtear, perhaps?)? Necromunda? That's three GW games right there. Then if we go beyond GW, Eden most definitely. Pulp City as well. Bushido is pretty close as well. Twisted is $70 so a tiny bit more, granted. But I think that the bottom line is that the IGG campaigns look to be failing pretty hard. And I would be surprised if the price point wasn't part of the equation.
  7. How do you stop a Mexican standoff between two bruising teams?

    My point is that both teams are basically dependent on their Captain's buff to damage. If you remove that, the other guy wins the scrap. So, let's say that Tapper goes in on his last activation. Ox is a bit further back so he is safe. Tapper mauls someone (let's say Boar), get Mom, win ini. Tapper goes, takes ou Boar, damages someone else who is around. Let's say Broiler. Then Butchers retaliate using Broiler and either take out Tapper or almost take him out (due to Ox). Hooper comes in and either takes out Broiler or damages, I dunno, Meathook. Tapper dies. Pintpot goes in and takes out Meathook or Broiler. Ox takes out Pintpot. oSpigot comes in and takes out the one who is left. 6-4 to Brewers. But now Tapper and Pintpot are a million miles away, while Ox is in the thick of things and Boar, Meathook and Broiler are back. Hooper and oSpigot die, vBrisket scores and the Butchers win. Or, if it is the other way around (Ox goes in), the opposite happens and Brewers win (maybe - they probably need the ball at some point). But my point is that unless you can take out the lynchpin model (the Captain in this case), committing doesn't seem like a good idea because you end up fighting on their terms and the Captain synergy is such a huge damage multiplier. Unless you can take out two players when committing but that's a tall order.
  8. How do you stop a Mexican standoff between two bruising teams?

    Threat range isn't really all that important unless the difference is massive. The problem is that whoever goes in does so without the support and synergy and therefore does less damage than the retaliation. Support and synergy are pretty huge multipliers for beat-down efficiency for both Butcher and (especially!) Brewers.
  9. How do you stop a Mexican standoff between two bruising teams?

    But both players are refusing so I kinda find the clock quite an unsatisfying breaker here. If we forget the original Ox thingy from the game I described, the "correct" move from the Butchers would've been to just call out a model and pass immediately. Then if the Brewers do it as well, both can swap as fast as possible until one's clock runs out. Which turns the game into a really weird one and a half hour long speed contest on who can press the clock button the fastest while shouting the name of a model. Which is probably how they play Guild Ball in hell. His range just sucks and the Butchers will butcher him. But yeah, in general having a believable ranged threat helps. Thank you! That sounds like what the doctor ordered! I suppose I need to listen to that (though I hate podcasts - my general experience is that they tend to end up being an hour or two of talk which could've been condensed to two to three paragraphs of text and a picture )
  10. We had the weirdest game on Monday. I had Tapper, Scum, oSpigot, Hooper, Friday, Pintpot vs Ox, Princess, Broiler, Boar, Meathook, vBrisket Butchers get the ball but fail a pass with basically the exact only possible scatter result that makes the ball go way behind their goal. vBrisket retrieves the ball, Cat farms a bit of Mom out of Broiler, Ox comes in and does a number on Pintpot but Tapper retaliates. Brewers win Ini and Tapper finishes off Ox. Broiler just barely fails to kill the cat who heals up and skitters into cover. And then the magic happens. The Butchers retreat. We have a Mexican standoff. Next turn the Butchers faff around with the ball gaining Mom for healing Ox and Broiler while the Brewers watch. This was just bonkers. Whoever commits, dies. To do something, my opponent sets up a Boar Charge into Pintpot with Ox and Meathook able to come in to support with some Ball shenanigans. Butchers win ini, Boar Charges into Pintpot. He does a lot of damage but PP survives on one wound. Tapper takes out Boar. We quit. It seemed very strongly to us that whoever commits, ends up fighting on the opponent's terms and dies. There is little benefit to making the first more as whoever comes doesn't have the support and the synergies which are absolutely huge. Retaliation does more damage than the Charge. How do you stop this from happening? After the game (well, "game" more like) I speculated that maybe vBrisket just should've gone for a goal. Her threat range is so long that I couldn't reach her and she could come, make a shot (likely four dice looking for a five) and then get back to safety through Unpredictable and such. I'd get the ball and maybe try a similar thing with Friday but she'll die to retaliation much more likely (though she does have a longer threat range so it kinda depends). But that seems like an even more unsatisfying game...
  11. PVC Fishers and Butchers

    My prediction based on the current totals is that the Fishies will fund but the Butchers won't. Usually crowdfunding money trickle works so that you get one third of the final total during the first two days, then one third during the middle period and the final third during the last two days. Now, this is a bit different in that it is for a very known product and there's not stretch goals and there's two concurrent campaigns. That last bit I could see going so that some of the people pledging for Butchers will switch to Fish if it looks like the latter will fund but the former not. If only one funds, it'll be very interesting to see what SFG does. Keep doing campaigns for each Guild?
  12. SFG's own tournament match videos are pretty great. The production values are high and there's two commentators who discuss optimal plays and things like that. Good stuff!
  13. Which players are going to the minors

    Aye, both of the Minors I mentioned I pulled from a hat.
  14. Which players are going to the minors

    Brewers' minor guild is the Firemen's Guild so Stoker and Stave to keep them employed and to put fires out at range with beer respectively. Mason's minor guild is the Night Watch Guild so Granite (Gra-nite -> nite -> night!) and Mallet, because his headband and hair look a bit like a police cap.
  15. PVC Fishers and Butchers

    Note also that the waiting time for a production slot at a Chinese factory can be really long. They are likely using one factory for all of their releases and have booked the slots for some minor Guilds already, for example. One of the weknesses of PVC, definitely.