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malladin.ben last won the day on October 12

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  1. Rage, eager to get rid of gutter and all her whinging and moaning about blackheart-this and blackheart-that, Rage took her with him to play the Butchers in the chance that she'd leave with them and chew Ox's ear off instead of his. (For those of you who don't know that handsome face with the bemused grin at the prospect of beating me yet again, it's Henry Kay, aka @Gauntlet, and he's a bit good at this game) We played GICs. I chose Blood Thirst and he chose honour amongst thieves. I used my efficiency butchers list of Ox, truffles, Boar, Rage, Meathook and Shank. He took Rage, Strongbox, Decimate, Benny, Gutter and Hemlocke. He spent turn 1 getting decimate set up for a goal. She missed and then had to brace for a tooled up shank going in on her. Unfortunately for shank he'd been blinded by hemlocke and could only manage 2 momentum and 6 damage (tooled up and inside Ox's aura). This put Henry 2 up on momentum going into turn 2, which he won. Decimate took the parting blow from shank, but meathook for a double-dodge into snapshot range and got the goal. He had knee slider, but even a 9" dice couldn't get him out of range of several butchers. For rest of turn 2 we changed blows, me killing decimate and putting a good few on Rage and Gutter, and locking him down with Boar's 2" melee. Boar got taken out, and shank took 6 dmg, in return, but I'd managed to mitigate or heal a decent amount. We were even on MP going into turn 3. Whoever wins this roll-off is in a strong position to pop their captain's legendary and turn the game. I win and Ox takes out Gutter and Rage, but the influence just goes to Benny and Hemlocke. The game is levelled at 6-6. We both have some decent actions on the table and trying to decide the best order is giving me a headache. I make all the wrong decisions and Henry is able to KD Ox with Strongbox, score with hemlocke and deny me my Rage activation. All I can do in return is move Shank to safety. I forget to stand Ox back up and Decimate goes in on Ox and manages to take him down from full health in one activation. I really didn't see that as being remotely on the cards. I should have used meathook to get to decimate and heroiced to prevent her from even getting to him, and should have stood him up. I possibly should have got the ball with shank regardless of if he could have got to a safe plave with it, as long as it stopped the goal. Henry being on 8 instead of 10 VPs at the very least buys me some more time. All that said, if I had prevented the ox take out and swapped the goal for a shank takeout, next turn rage comes back on and probably finishes things off with his legendary, anyway. Game 12-6 to Rage, which is pretty much my par score against Henry. Given that I felt I had options throughout and have learnt a lot more about how to play this team, I was pretty pleased with the game overall. After the game Meathhook had a good long chat with gutter in Erskirii about "women's things" and Rage smiled quietly to himself (at least on the outside). #TerrySaysVoteButcher
  2. Efficiency Butchers

    Did he manage to do that? I tend to find people come back on too many hp for that nowadays.
  3. Efficiency Butchers

    I'd want the scrum in my own half, ideally. That way when your players come back on they are able to join in the fight quickly
  4. Efficiency Butchers

    Hey if it's not working for you then don't use it. I find it an interesting and challenging way to play. However, if you want to try again, the trick to getting the most out of the list and not getting tied down in a scrum is to force the scrum pn your terms. You want it closer to your goal than theirs. Then you want to try and feed them boar and rage as easy kills. A wiser man than I once said that a takeout should be viewed as a repositioning opportunity, and if you can get the scrum to form up in the right place, Rage and Boar can make good use of that opportunity. Further, if you're stuck in the scrum, Rage and Boar are still getting 2 attacks from 1 inf each, so your team is still functioning like a 13inf team with Ox. That's not a fun scrum for your opponents to be in. It may seem like you're getting less value out of these models, but the trick is realise that you're still getting adequate value out of them just from berserk. And remember the damage that 3 INF on Meathook and Shank in Ox's - with crowd outs and hooked shank will probably hit his 3dmg result, and Meathook gets an extra dmg from smell blood, so 12 dmg each is quite reliable. Then you've probably got 3 or 4 on Ox, too. When it scrums up it's the rest if the team's turn to shine. And once you've killed a few models it's going to free Boar and Rage back up again. Use the desire people have to the these models down as a way to get people into the positions you want them in. If you include the KD missile that is truffles, there's three models they need to lock down, so don't make it easy for them. Spread them out a bit so that they can't just pick them both down with a 2" melee zone (and remember that Boar can usually escape a 2" melee zone of he's at Its limits, so a 4.5" gap should be enough).
  5. The Farmers got ploughed

    Think you need to post 3 pics forgot to count
  6. I've never had the opportunity to play in a Big League, and the ability of picking players from another team always sounded like a fun thing to play around with, and what with the Union in Chains campaign throwing up all sorts of new model discussions, and throwing up the possibility of models leaving their current teams to join a new one, it got me thinking about finding new homes for unloved models in their current guilds. One thing that got me thinking was a bit of Twitter banter over the masons unworthiness to win decimate because they don't play the models they have. It got me thinking... Chisel in an Ox team Just imagine if she was a butcher... She's got a 2" melee zone, 2/4 influence, decent damage output with set up (and we've got Ox and Meathook to supply the buffs) - she should be able to reliably hit her momentous 2 damage, with Ox and Tooled up and painful rage that could be some tasty output indeed, and under Ox's aura and Tooled up she's also dealing 4 damage extra when she gets hit if she's got feel my pain up. I could see her using her dodges and 2" melee zone to spread damage out over a couple of models (I reckon 7-9 damage each is very doable, depending on if you need momentum or not) and put feel my pain up and just sit there on 5hp and say "do you feel lucky?" On top of that, you could pitcher up to DEF 4 ARM 2! I'm sure masons players would chip in and tell me that that sort of thing never happens, but thats not the point of the thread. I don't want to see any negativity aboitvthe players you don't want, just pick a rarely-seen model from a different guild and dream about how they could be awesome in yours. So who would you pick?
  7. Efficiency Butchers

    Part of my reasoning to play this team is to get out of my Boiler crutch, so I deliberately haven't considered Princess over Truffles to stop me thinking about therefore adding Boiler into the team. having said that, I've had so many good times with Truffles it's really hard not to take her in this list anymore. The pig's real strength is in the shear amount of damage a well timed charge can do for a single influence. A typical def 4 arm 1 model that's been hooked and inside 4" of Ox during his legendary turn will be def 3/0 for Truffles' charge. With a couple of gang-ups that's a 65% chance of wrapping to the full book and a 38% chance of getting the double wrap. At +2 dmg that can be a whopping 13 dmg and 3 MP! Even without the gang ups you can wrap to the 2nd column 57% of the time against such a model and deal 5dmg and a KD for 2MP. That'll set up any of the other models in your team nicely. But at the very least 1 INF for a KD and a MP is not a bad deal at all.
  8. Escalation league starting team

    I would think Ox, Meathook and Boar is shockingly good I in 3v3. You've got no major influence conundrums either. Boar gets 1, Meathook gets at least 1, Ox gets at least 3 and you've got 2 left to stack up Ox or Meathook as you see fit. You can even happily just keep everyone with the INF they generate if you want to keep options open. Original Brisket will want at least 2 and vet wants a full stack, so Meathook is much better for flexibility.
  9. Woe is me for Billy-no-mates

    Was hoping to get a game in tonight and post up a nice match report for campaign, but I was stuck on my own. I wouldn't mind buy I'm at Element Games. It's practically the home of SFG! Jamie Giblin, you'd better let this count as a match report or get yourself down next week so we can have a game! (Lift home if you need it as usual) ;-P Cheerio, Ben
  10. new union picks for butchers?

    It is a bit of that. But also you need to be doing really well to get all 6 players inside the aura, so having a model that can reliably output 8 dmg regardless is useful, and having it so that you lose much less of your overall effectiveness if they do get taken out puts your opponent in a really difficult place - if they don't deal with him and go instead for someone else they are going to suffer a big rage activation, if they do go for him they're spending a lot of their INF to deal with just 1 of yours.
  11. new union picks for butchers?

    Hopefully I am. I'm yet to win anything yet, though :-( What I can say is that I'm really enjoying butchers again for the first time in a while and am enthusiastic, excited even, to playing them again. And wouldn't you know, it's only bloody Ox and Shank that have won me over again!
  12. new union picks for butchers?

    Also, to return to the threadomancy, I've got a new-found love of Rage. I've never really been much of a fan of him before, but I'm finding, alongside Boar he makes a great distraction, helping keep Boar and Shank alive, and that doubling up the number of models the opponent feels the need to pin down is a nice bit of soft control. He's also pretty expendable, as if he get's taken out before he's activated, you've only lost one point of INF and doesn't benefit from half the buffs you've got going, so it minimises the blow of losing a model significantly. If they're taking out Rage over Boar you really are laughing! Cheerio, Ben
  13. new union picks for butchers?

    Can I give away mine by asking what in smeg's name are you lot talking about?
  14. That's a good point. I can see that. I suppose I'm talking more about a rough definition as to whether the ability is being used for one of three broad and crude definitions entirely in my own head. I see "Output" as working directly towards gaining VPs in some way, "Support" as helping teammates score VPs and "Control" as something that forces your opponent to do something they don't want to do. I suppose quick time can be used to achieve all three of these effects (I hadn't considered your point about using it to force someone to move a model), but mostly I use it as an "Output" ability, as you say, dodging in to engage an unpredictable movement model or out of a 2" melee zone to take a shot. Anyway, this all just semantics. I'm not saying Quick Time is a bad ability by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just not sure that dodging boar out of engagement is the best use of it. Cheerio, Ben
  15. I'll start with the TL:DR - I have fallen back in love with Ox in a big way and the fix is really the reason why. I am sorry @Jamie P for being so hostile to this change. I was right about one thing, he does play differently now, but it is for the better and his is still the king of support captains. So firstly, what was I so hostile about, and why was I wrong about it: Well, to clarify, I didn't feel his errata made him worse, overall. I was a little salty over the loss of the 2>>, which I would often take over his higher playbook results if I got it, but mainly I felt the changes to his playbook would go some way to diluting his playstyle and mean that he would get less out of his support abilities and you'd be more likely to stack him up and throw him in and he'd just effectively become a slower fillet with a more achievable KD. Having played him, I can conclude that this was mainly wrong. There's elements of truth in it - you are (well, I am anyway) much more likely to stack Ox up with 5 than I was before, but that is far from making him a slower Fillet, and his support play is still very relevant to how you get the most out of captain Ox. With old Ox it was always a dilemma about giving him any influence at all, as it was invariably better spent on models who would be better at changing that INF into higher damage results if they could operate inside Ox's aura. However, if you stack up a model with 4 INF and have Ox lurking, it's very easy for your opponent to simply move them away or only feed you a model they don't need that turn, or someone with awesome counter attacks to mess with your activation. The frustrations of playing Ox are in failing to make those activations count. The new Ox, I find, tends to allow you to spread your influence more evenly across your team and have several activations that threaten to be relevant whilst if a model gets denied doing anything useful with its activation you're not losing out so much. So here's how it works, and (hopefully) why it's so fun to play: 1. Influence Flexibility: I think the primary advantage of an Ox team is how flexible you can afford to be with your INF allocation. It's not like a Fillet team that always wants to give Fillet 6 and then struggles with where to put what's left. You can stack up Ox with 5 and he'll go to town, but similarly, if you don't you can still give him 2 or 3 and he'll do a lot of work for you. Tough skin can be life saving, Butchery and They Ain't Tough are also pretty decent little abilities. Even of Ox gets counter attacked he can still have a pretty relevant activation and get the rest of his team going. He's not, however, like the old Ox that you don't might not assign any influence to at all. Other key components to the team are other models that can be flexible in their use of INF. Meathook is a great example. with just 1 INF she will still have a very relevant activation, able to hit one player for hooked, bleed and -4/-4 MOV (if she spends the MP), or tool someone up. With 2 she can do that and tool someone up. With the full 3 she can get the hooked and bleed and also probably deal the equivalent of 13-14hp damage (including bleed) under Ox's aura. Shank is another key player under Ox - he's perhaps not as flexible as he wants his full 3 every turn, but he's very flexible in where he can spend it and what he can spend it to achieve. You can even cope with a model being taken out fairly reasonably. Even a 5-stacked Ox (although that does hurt), as you've still got plenty of relevant activations that at the very least are going to earn you momentum and help you claw back the next turn. This provides you with so much more flexibility of approach that can make your games much more interesting and mean you're never falling too far behind. 2. Efficiency: INF efficient players (Boar, Minx, Rage, Truffles) are also pretty good with Ox as they're not taking INF from other players, and can get a lot of value from the rest of the team's support play. Even Rage (let alone Minx) can benefit from Hooked, They Ain't Tough and the ARM penalty component of Ox's legendary. Rage can be targeting a DEF 3/2 model as if it were DEF 2/0 when the stars align. When truffles comes in for a charge on Ox's legendary turn he can wrap multiple times for 3-4 DMG a go. And if you don't find that fun, you're playing the wrong guild! ;-). If you think about it in one way, Ox himself if fantastically efficient. His aura is basically Tooled Up for any models in range to use it. He's definitely going to use it himself, and if you can use it with other models you're clocking up it's value. But I think now, even if he only get's to use it himself, it's still a high value tool. You could see him as a 5/6 captain with tooled up. If you're managing to use the aura for other models his effect just increases. The extra free effects Meathook and Minx earn could, too, be seen as free character plays that might otherwise cost you an INF. The list I've largely settled on now that uses Meathook, Truffles, Boar, Rage and Shank can have the effect of something like 23 INF effect if you can maximise Ox's aura. 3. Don't depend on the aura: Ox's aura is certainly powerful, but don't be to tied into making it pay. In an old Ox team I was too concerned with trying to make the aura work through a couple of 4-stacked models that were going to have big activations inside the aura and win me the game. But I find the way the new Ox plays I'm less fussed about this, and finding models can be perfectly valid when operating outside the aura. Taking Rage again was a key aspect of this. Rage will quite happily charge into anyone without unpredictable movement and earn you a stack of momentum and damage. His output is pretty much identical to Boar's but he doesn't get anything from Ox, so why worry about Boar being inside the aura quite so much. Shank, too, can be equally useful inside the aura as outside it. Given that he's not going to be hitting 4 lots of 3 DMG anymore like he used to, his primary function is about getting MP and/or the ball. Spending his INF to get a couple of MP at the end of turn 1 can be crucial to winning first turn. But likewise, acting inside Ox's aura and hitting his 3dmg result 3 times for 12 DMG can be decent, as can sweeping in from a distance to finish off someone left on just a few HP. 4. Keep Your Options Open: I think all of these points can be summed up in one word: flexibility. Its never really been a butchers thing before now, but think this Ox enables you to play a team that can adapt to things really quickly on the fly. Lots of models in the Butchers have support plays they can use when not wanting to spend their inf on attacks: Dirty Knives, Swift Stance, Thousand Cuts, etc. These plays give you options when you can't engage. On the other hand, there are some models that specialise in output (Boar, vet Brisket*) or support effects (Meathook, Minx). It's important to get the team's balance of output to support plays right. I recently swapped Rage in for Minx as my union pick because I felt there was too much support for too little output in the overall team. This way you've always got a range of options for each activation, both in terms of the model you choose and what you do with it. *Yes, I know you can use Quick Time to dodge other players around. I'm just not sure you should. Your opponent will get an activation in between to chase down whoever it was you were trying to free up, and it signposts what you're next move is going to be. The end result is a team that can adapt, and that means that you're not suffering as much from the "bad times" you get when your opponent seems to be able to just roll the game against you and deny you any ability to do anything. It's a great way to play the game. Building a Team: Personally I like the following team: Ox, Truffles, Meathook, Shank, Boar, Rage But that's not to say other teams aren't valid. Practically every model has it's uses, I'd just be thinking about the mix of support to output in your team. In my team, Ox and Meathook are support focused, Shank, Boar and Rage are output focused and Truffles is kind of in the middle (I see KD as a support ability). I think you want three or four output models in your team as Ox brings an extra emphasis on support as the captain. I see vet Brisket as an Output model, so would probably swap her in for Boar or Rage if I was going to use her, Boiler and og Brisket are more mixed, but Princess is support all the way. Tenderiser is perhaps the odd-one out, but he's definitely a support model, but probably best as a sideboard piece for taking against certain teams. Find the models that suit your style of play. I love running at my opponent looking to get into combat, so Boar and Rage are perfect for my playstyle, but if you prefer more careful set up, control, or clinical precision in your play, other player mixes may suit you better. Just bear in mind that mix of support to output in your final team and you should be alright. Anyway, I'll sign off for now, but I'd love to hear how others were getting use out of Ox since the errata. Cheerio, Ben