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malladin.ben last won the day on January 17

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About malladin.ben

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  1. Farmers Matchup?

    I tried to use Tenderiser to force Thresher to pick less optimal choices for his takeouts. I think the strategy is sound, but I discovered you need to be very careful with placements to avoid blocking his charge lanes. I also built a team that tried to go for goals rather than takeouts, but I'm not sure this was the best strategy, as giving Thresher access to the ball just makes him even more mobile. Anyway, that's just some early thoughts - I've only played against them once now with Butchers.
  2. Hi from Macclesfield, UK

    There's a few of us meet up at Thursdays evenings at element games. Not sure why your request hasn't been accepted. This is the group we use for guild ball at element: https://www.facebook.com/groups/360145990859652/ Thes also GNOME in Bolton https://www.facebook.com/groups/441344116072662/ And there's Steamforged's own gaming night on Wednesday evenings.
  3. vGutter card shown

    No, I don't think so. Jaecar has relevant character plays, dodges and push-dodges on his playbook that make using him interesting - you;re doing something other than just dealing momentous damage. This Gutter pretty much just deals momentous damage. Not that butchers don't want momentous damage to be dealt, and she deals it pretty damn reliably with a 2" melee zone, but every model in the butchers line up deals momentous damage, so it's just not something to write home about. I think people are getting tied up on the "dull" tag as being a strong criticism, and I don't think it is, it's just an obvious first reaction to her card. I had a discussion on twitter with Rich from DTTB about how we communicate this and the relevance of the expression "everything before the but is bullshit". After this conversation I also heard an evaluation of a card on a LCG podcast I listen to (nothing directly relating to GB) as "unexciting but damned effective" and I think that is a better way to describe her, and hopefully would allow the criticisms to fade away a bit and for us to focus on the effectiveness and start spitballing some ideas on how to get the most out of her.
  4. vGutter card shown

    Brisket is the easy swap out in that team for me. If you want that opportunistic goal, Gutter's probably as good. You lose the extra influence, but if you're not receiving that can be far from guaranteed. Maybe swap gutter in for Brisket when you're kicking?
  5. I think I'd probs go for the veteran version of brisket for the extra threat to the ball. As for union choice, you've got decent support and damage output between Ox, boiler and gutter, so I'd either add in decimate of you want a bit of dynamic opportunistic goal threat or f you want to go for more of a brawl, Avarisse for a KD/push set up merchant.
  6. vGutter card shown

    The thing to take into account here is that whilst most butchers players are satisfied, even happy, with gutter, there's the thought that shes a bit bland or uninteresting. I think this stems from the fact that she is very little different to her original version. The only really new thing she does is the extra jog forward and even that isn't much different to other things we have in guild. For some there may also be a bit of disappointment that she lost scything blow and didn't get anything back equivalent in return. Decimate, on the other hand does something that feels very brewer's yet adds something completely new to the guild, something we've only really seen previously with Hammer - the ability to sgive people around and chase after them with a dodge - it's a really interesting mechanic that fits nicely within the brewer's colour pie yet adds something new to their play. That and changing the 4/1 mobile model to a 3/1 tough hide just feels right for her. It's not so much that decimate is much better than gutter (although she is at least a bit), it's that she is something different, new and both a brewer and decimate at the same time. Gutter just feels like a colour swap from purple to red in comparison. It's not the "better" it's the "interesting".
  7. So I played a game last night vs @Gauntlet's vRage team and, as usual lost. Quite badly really (12-4, and 2 of those were because he took out his own Hemlocke because he couldn't get her out of scything blow range). Now Henry is arguably up there as one of the best players in the world and IMO could have mixed things up quite a bit if he'd been able to go to worlds last year, so a casual scummer like me shouldn't expect to win against him, so I don't want to let that colour my overall judgement too much, but I couldn't help but feeling that vRage's union team just does the beatdown/takeout game better than butchers. There was also the general anticlimax that was the vet Gutter reveal yesterday (personal opinion=solid but dull). Watching the video (no spoilers as to the result) it was stated that Bryce who was championing butchers on the stream wasn't that familiar with them. Is this at the core of the problem that the design team doesn't really have a butchers player championing them and pushing for their design - Ratcatchers, Hunters and Morts seem to be Jamie's favourites, Fish, Masons and Farmers have Bryce, Alex seems to like Blacksmiths and Alchemists (and maybe union), and Steve (who I don't know) seems to play engineers, morts and brewers... no one seems to have the butcher's back (I'm probably reading more into this, and I suspect Alex is much more tied up with Godtear, anyway). Then in counter to all that, @Slothrop won a 4-rounder at adepticon with Butchers yesterday. So I just don't know what I should think about butchers currently. One thought that has occurred to me yesterday is that the butchers main design space of "explosive damage output" naturally pushes up against things that can lead to NPEs, and things have to be careful not to be over-tuned or butchers just ruin everyone's day. Specifically, I mean that the ability to pick any model and just take it out before it can spend it's big stack of INF, means that the opponent has suddenly lost a massive chunk what they can do in the turn and will naturally have a negative experience as a result. This thought was spawned by discussion around the loss of scything blow - in my game last night, Henry managed to take out 3 players in 1 turn through a nice scything blow set up on Boar. Scything Blow in butchers has been something that has been specifically stated as something that shouldn't exist, and I would suggest that this is evidence of the fear of over-tuning the butchers. So, what I really want to ask is: 1. Are Butchers sub-par as a fighting team now? And if so does that mean we should play them differently? 2. Are butchers generally sub-par in the meta? If so what do they need to compete? If not, what are the tricks to playing them successfully, competitively? 3. Is there an inherent problem in the design of butchers, and/or are the design team over-reacting to this in their solid-but-dull design of vet Gutter? Anyway, I'm not trying to be salty or negative here - I genuinely don't know what to think about them at the moment, so I thought I'd canvas some opinions. Ben
  8. Tactics for the Butchers Guild

    Boooo!!!! But seriously, it's a great write up. I learnt some things reading it, and I've been playing Butchers almost exclusively since retail release.
  9. vGutter card shown

    I suspect that's because the studio painted what was supposed to be trousers as flesh.
  10. Veteran Gutter Speculation Thread

    Butchers are so close to being competitive at the moment, but I just think there's a couple of players they could do with to give them the tools to compete at the top level (and one that I want there for when we lose union, because of my personal favourite team). These players can be potentially addressed by vet Gutter, minor guild play-ups and any S4 "balance repass". Player type 1: Midfield Brawler Before the Harry nerf I thought Fillet was just about competitive, but since he's been hit a bit I think Fillet suffers greatly from that lack of set up. We need a model to replace him: a 2" melee zone that can fairly reliably KD and push people around a bit, and not sacrifice momentum to do so. At TAC 7 a KD on the 3rd column has a 50% chance of triggering vs a 4/1 model. With TAC 5 AP, it's the same chance of hitting the third column. So maybe if vGutter keeps TAC 5 and AP, and gets a KD on 3 and some pushes she'd go some way to fulfilling this role. Ideally she'd add in some damage and momentum to with these results. Player type 2: Mobile Killer I have finally got over the fact that Shank isn't Shank anymore, but that's not to say that some sort of mobile killer isn't something butchers miss. Perhaps not with full-on S1/2 Shank-level of mobility and killing power, but something that can get to models your opponent is trying to hide or hunt down protected support models is something I think butchers could do with, especially Ox, as Fillet can play that role herself. What's really key for this model is a 4 INF cap and a decent damage progression on their playbook so that they can be given the influence to finish someone off. 2" melee is nice here, especially for Ox, but not essential. Player type 3: Efficient Killer After the Harry nerf it's taken me ages to find a Butchers team I feel I can play and compete with. It's not as strong as the Fillet & Harry team was, but its got game into a number of meta teams currently. And key to this team is having both Boar and Rage alongside ear other, adding redundancy, tempting people into positions where your other models can finish them off. I'd really like another furious/berserk model, or maybe just one of these, but something focused on outputting damage rather than a support piece like Minx. 1" melee on this model is a given, I think. If I were to guess as to what vet Gutter will be, I think she's probably currently closest to the midfield brawler, but in terms of her fluff I think she's probably closest to the efficient killer. As such I think I'd split the difference and say that she'd be the mobile killer, just swap her pushes for dodges and add a few combined results to her playbook and you're probably most of the way there. That was me. It was supposed to be deliberately OP, lol. That said, OPT is a nice balancer for that ability.
  11. Butchers Player Summaries

    updated. Ironically, I usually forget about her heroic play on the tabletop too.
  12. Butchers Player Summaries

    I'm not sure I'd say Fillet was bad into control, and is certainly a much better option than Ox. At DEF 5 and the ability to go to DEF 6 she's probably one of the safest models against control effects in the game.
  13. Game Plan deck discussion

    To be fair this is a valid criticism. I payed a game with them last night and whilst the init score was only relevant going in to turn 2 (all the other turns I was just so up on mom it didnt matter) i drew both 7s and one of the 6s so felt like I was going to be in control if it was ever close. That said I still much prefer this system to the old. Not because of the initiative number, which largely felt neither here nor there for most of the game, but because these cards are just plain better in so many ways than plot cards (which have exactly the same weakness). Compared to plot cards, which in season 3 I have often found myself with 3 unused cards at the end of the game, I am always getting a benefit - however sitiational that benefit may be it always allows me the opportunity to play into setting it up and my opponent the opportunity to prevent me from setting up the situation. There are no massive gotchas during gameplay, theres much less of an issue about forgtting you have them and failing to playing them when you have the chance (or is it just messy old me who has this problem?), and there's none of the real npe cards like don't touch the hair, knee slider, and whatever personal hates each one of us has.
  14. Game Plan deck discussion

    If you're outside of 8" of the goal post this is always going to be the case, surely? Although you are correct about push dodges being a flaw in my cunning plan. I told you I was rubbish at this game, lol.
  15. Game Plan deck discussion

    Glad to see Butchers are seemingly getting a power boost from this, @EpicChris ;-). @Gauntlet what are you doing, telling people how to stop Ox? stoppit!! It may be that I'm a bad player, or because of the sort of team I'm running at the moment, but I see any card with an INF penalty as something I wouldn't want to even contemplate. Sell it to the crowd, Lone Striker, Stick to the Plan and grudge match are pretty much going straight in the discard pile. There's only Kick 'Em When They're Down I'd consider, but the more I Think about this one the less and less a like it with my team - just doesn't have the KDs. That said, +1 damage for 4 models on your team is worth the -1. If I was playing Brewers I think I'd be happy to play this and lose the initiative. I can also see myself getting good mileage out of the offside trap (ironic as a butchers player when you think that the Butchers as Matt's team are probably inspired in part by Arsenal), possibly even enough to give up the initiative - it can really wreck with the maths required for the goal and prevent a first activation goal against you, especially if its a 4 INF squaddie with the ball who has to spend INF to do some sort of set up action, then to charge, and shoot - you've then just denied them their goal if you can prevent the wrap (with that convenient 1MP for a defensive stance). It's a bit of a trap that your opponent might not be foolish enough to spring, but you've ceded a low INIT card for denying them the main advantage they were going to get from a first activation goal. In an early game stand off I can see midfield general adding a lot that might be worth giving up initiative for. If they think they're out of range and were planning to make you go first and keep back you can use the extra movement to surprise them, potentially giving you a surprise target if they still make you go first, or wrecking their plans and forcing them to take the first activation. Not saying winning the initiative isn't almost always the best thing, but I can see situations where these cards can mess with your opponents plans when they do win it, and thinking about potential traps and ploys like that you can play adds an interesting extra dimension to the play. Plus also as someone who quite often loses the initiative (I play butchers, I know, I'm supposed to win it all the time. I guess I'm just bad) I think I'd much rather get a nice little benefit despite losing initiative rather than nothing, even if my opponent is also gaining a benefit. Cheerio, Ben