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Steamforged

PITCH FORMATIONS THEORY THREAD

136 posts in this topic
30 minutes ago, Isante said:

Hunters...

What about them? They aren't amazing, but ulfr/skatha/theron can all threaten a reasonable distance on the ball, and some combination of theron/minx/seenah/jaecar can between them be reasonably expected to score a take out across two activations. Hell, if nothing else, if the Butchers spend their first activation securing the ball, Theron on the halfway line is actually not bad against Fillet since Pinned + sit behind forest actually shuts her down reasonably effectively in a way they can't easily play around.

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4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I honestly don't believe there is a single possible team in the game that threatens neither takeouts nor goals when you kick off with two models on the centre line.

The problem is that the receiver gets the first opportunity to shut down that threat on every axis they can, with little to no interaction from your models. It's disproportionately punishing for a coin flip.

I wouldn't be surprised if it became common in this format to begin your first activation as kicker 2-6 VP's down.

Obviously this is experimental, and this feedback thread was created for exactly that purpose. Feedback. But it's very clear that the game wasn't designed with this in mind, and I think it'll need plenty of changes to the way the first actions of the game work. I still like the idea behind it... but something just doesn't work.

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4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

What about them? They aren't amazing, but ulfr/skatha/theron can all threaten a reasonable distance on the ball, and some combination of theron/minx/seenah/jaecar can between them be reasonably expected to score a take out across two activations. Hell, if nothing else, if the Butchers spend their first activation securing the ball, Theron on the halfway line is actually not bad against Fillet since Pinned + sit behind forest actually shuts her down reasonably effectively in a way they can't easily play around.

Name me a single hunter model with a scenario that can reliably steal a ball from the likes of naja, egret or fangtooth on the mid lane and then score a goal during a first hunters activation after passing the ball. I really would like to know how to do that.

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We were few games tests, and on our side we find more strategic to deploy up to lines (6 ", 10 " and 18 ") and not with base contact.

 

And also, but we don't have to test, to make other than 2-2-2.

Maybe 1-3-2 or 2-3-1, and why not 2-2-2 for the kicking and 1-3-2 for the receiving

 

 

sry for bad english ;)

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7 hours ago, JacctheInsomniac said:

The problem is that the receiver gets the first opportunity to shut down that threat on every axis they can, with little to no interaction from your models. It's disproportionately punishing for a coin flip.

With the addition of a starting Momentum, I don't think there's many situations where the receiver can shut down both your frontline models *and* your kicker. They can shut down your threat on the ball, or get the upper hand in the brawl on the centre line, but I don't think they can reasonably plan to do both - and against the teams which can only do one of those two things well, they can put up a reasonable fight in that area even if they don't have first activation - teams like Fishermen can go for the ball even if it's being hidden, and teams like Brewers can do well in a brawl even if the opponent's first activation is to KD you or similar.

7 hours ago, Larhendiel said:

Name me a single hunter model with a scenario that can reliably steal a ball from the likes of naja, egret or fangtooth on the mid lane and then score a goal during a first hunters activation after passing the ball. I really would like to know how to do that.

If you're playing against Alchemists you're probably going for a fighting game rather than a footballing one. Even so, Skatha can deal with Naja okay - Snowball dodge to engage, attack for momentum, Legendary, bonus time attack for T><, sprint to goal, score.

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4 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

If you're playing against Alchemists you're probably going for a fighting game rather than a footballing one. Even so, Skatha can deal with Naja okay - Snowball dodge to engage, attack for momentum, Legendary, bonus time attack for T><, sprint to goal, score.

All of that relies on her being able to snowball dodge to engage... Most of her team will be out of her kick threat range if she is on the middle line and will have to move before doing that ;)

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18 minutes ago, Isante said:

All of that relies on her being able to snowball dodge to engage... Most of her team will be out of her kick threat range if she is on the middle line and will have to move before doing that ;)

Unless they deployed Naja last (unlikely given they can get way more use out of other models) you know where the snake is going to be.. just deploy within 5" of it? You can pretty easily have Skatha within 6" of the other frontline model and/or the model you kicked off with. I don't see how this is particularly relevant here though. I already talked about how against Alchemists you're probably going for takeouts rather than a fast goal anyway.

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As I say in the other thread, I was WRONG. With Mark 2 rules, it's actually nowhere near as one-sided as I thought. I haven't had 6-point activation first activation yet. The kicker with momentum and ability to see where receiver models are makes that super-hard. I thought Fillet would wreck face - but she can't do it 1st activation and after that the kicker has time to mitigate it. I thought control was pointless - it's just different. You can't be a Ballista dick or Obulus tractor-doom player but you can still control. Choosing deployment positions is FUN!

I was wrong. Goddamn it, Perkins was right (eventually after our moaning about Mark 1 - ain't playing that nonsense! :) ). I would 100% support this being the standard play format - and I'm not sure I want to wait a year to Season 4 for that.

I cannot recommend enough that you play a few games of this (your first game doesn't count - you will DEFINITELY deploy wrong). It really is eye-opening.

We put up with a lot of nonsense in Turn 1 - this circumvents a lot of it.

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@EpicChris. I though have sympathy with your earlier sentiment raised within your previous e-mails in that I would potentially envisage this being, when/if introduced, a new format for alternative play rather than totally replacing current format.  The new rules certainly do look interesting and present new challenges to play and player selection, but so does the current format and to totally do away with that option would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

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13 minutes ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

What is this, it sounds cool?

Use of Puppet Master to pull an enemy model far into your team on turn one where it can't be supported, then beating it to death with several Morticians.

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1 minute ago, Gauntlet said:

Use of Puppet Master to pull an enemy model far into your team on turn one where it can't be supported, then beating it to death with several Morticians.

Sounds cooler than it actually is...

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I'll be getting 2-3 games under these rules this weekend. Finally opened up my schedule enough to do so. They'll be against my younger brother where the skill gap is quite large so I'm hoping to get useful insights on that scenario. Haven't decided my teams but one is likely to be Corsair.

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Just wanted to briefly discuss/provide feedback on my game this week featuring alternate deployment:

I didn’t like the theory craft behind the idea of the receiving team not only getting the ball, but also being able to counter place behind the kicker. So we elected for Jamie’s alternate rule set where deployment is Kicker>Full Receiving team>Remaining Kicking team.

 

Played a semi-classic fish team versus Butchers. I ended up kicking off. My basic idea before placing any models was I was going to pooch kick to greyscales or Sakana for a turn 1 goal, followed by a Shark Tackle/Net/Score activation. I wanted to go up 8-0 as fast as possible before the butchers could start laying into me.

I placed Shark on the 10” line center . He deployed Princess and Boar on the Midline, Fillet and Brisket on the 10” and then Meathook and Boiler on the 6” line.

***ISSUES DISCOVERED*** with this “alternate-alternate” placement, and the rule of a model cannot be within 3” from an enemy, the Butcher was able to effectively screen off 12” of the center line in the middle of the pitch. This meant 1) Fangtooth could not be deployed in a reasonable location and 2) Fangtooth is actually kind of a junkier choice than I thought because you can’t catch anyone in the stink during deployment.

I proceeded to place Greyscales up front wide right, Fangtooth off kilter on the front line. Sakana on the 10” next to a box with Siren and Tentacles on the 6”.

 

I don’t remember the exact sequence of activations, but I do know I screwed up my kick off. The placement looked good, but turned out it was just an inch and a half or so too far out for greyscales to score his 17” shot. I should have measured beforehand and gone for the reroll. Unfortunately this effectively limited me to a single goal on turn 1 and very likely cost me the game. The other thing I recall is feeling extremely pressured by Boar and Fillet early. So much so that I threw my net on my first activation of turn one, but I couldn’t even nab the entire team as I am so accustom. Those guys on the back 6” line are hard to get. Fillet one rounded Sakana way sooner than I expected she’d be able to do so also, which kind of sealed the deal for me losing the 2nd goal opportunity. I had to play the “bank momentum for heals/counter attacks” far quicker than usual. Eventually I was able to hammer home a 2nd goal after Fillet scored, but Fangtooth was doing his job too well and ultimately died followed by a meathook chip shot.

 

Ultimately, I think a lot of my downfall had to do with the kick off flub. I had theory crafted if I couldn’t do 2 goals on turn 1 I would probably lose, and that ended up coming true. The extra pressure without time to really consider my turn 2 certainly threw me off balance as well. I suppose a lot of this could be learned with time though. The butcher player told me he didn’t like being forced to have his support figures so far away from the rest of the team, which I can understand as well. The killing team doesn’t quite have enough time to do their normal quick foots and tool ups etc. Boar was pretty abusable center field all alone. Had I been a more damage heavy team or line up he would have died real fast. Regarding the format as a whole it doesn’t feel like it alleviates any particular balance issue, but did provide a nice change of pace. Should I try it again I'll probably leave ol Fangers at home /cry.

I’d recommend everyone give it a whirl. I’d consider running an event based on this just to spice things up, but I really don’t think it’s any sort of panacea.

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I know where you're coming from - but I would say this - your first 1-2 games will be like this. Partly because previous GB knowledge is less useful. You see I read all the above and thought 'that is so much more balanced from both sides'. Fillet not being easy to buff if you put her on the main line, Boar being a risk/reward choice on the main line, Shark not being able to gank the entire team, Fish not being able to close the game out in 1 turn. It felt to me that although it was weird for you guys, it actually seemed much much better as a game overall - you both had obstacles to overcome and couldn't dictate the game. 

As you play a few more games, the deployment starts to be clearer - you know who should be picked when kicking/receiving (i.e if kicking you maybe don't pick Fangtooth), you know that if receiving you can (if you want to) go for a mid line close out. However I have found the kicker then can clump to one side, rendering one of your midline players useless. Remember the kicker controls the ball location so can force one side or other to be more important. When fighting into a clump of kicker players, it can be rough. Also the second line (10") is crucial - these might be the receiver collectors if their front line doesn't want to run backwards. I have found a diamond shape is the default dependent on teams.

What it feels to me is - a) it looks better - you have actual 'positions' b ) turn 1 is more interesting and isn't a one-sided show c) More interaction.

It's a rough sell because it feels SO ALIEN, but it's worth it.

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On ‎13‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 9:53 AM, EpicChris said:

I was wrong. Goddamn it, Perkins was right.

Welcome to the light, Chris.

On a serious note, heed what Chris is saying here. Make sure you give this a try, and not just once because it is radically different to your usual game of Guild Ball.

I've seen a few times on this thread and in other places that people have been surprised by how things turned out and by the brand new tactical challenges Pitch Formations present.

 

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Seems that there are a lot of people that prefer the kicker starts with an MP. Has anybody tried this when the kicker has Shark, Midas, Scalpel, Obulus or Vitriol on their team? Would appear to make it incredibly trivial for the kicking team to steal the ball, score and have last activation.

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On 7/13/2017 at 4:53 AM, EpicChris said:

As I say in the other thread, I was WRONG. With Mark 2 rules, it's actually nowhere near as one-sided as I thought. I haven't had 6-point activation first activation yet. The kicker with momentum and ability to see where receiver models are makes that super-hard. I thought Fillet would wreck face - but she can't do it 1st activation and after that the kicker has time to mitigate it. I thought control was pointless - it's just different. You can't be a Ballista dick or Obulus tractor-doom player but you can still control. Choosing deployment positions is FUN!

I was wrong. Goddamn it, Perkins was right (eventually after our moaning about Mark 1 - ain't playing that nonsense! :) ). I would 100% support this being the standard play format - and I'm not sure I want to wait a year to Season 4 for that.

I cannot recommend enough that you play a few games of this (your first game doesn't count - you will DEFINITELY deploy wrong). It really is eye-opening.

We put up with a lot of nonsense in Turn 1 - this circumvents a lot of it.

What's the mark-2 deployment? Is it just kicker gets a momentum?

 

Never mind I just found it!

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4 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

Seems that there are a lot of people that prefer the kicker starts with an MP. Has anybody tried this when the kicker has Shark, Midas, Scalpel, Obulus or Vitriol on their team? Would appear to make it incredibly trivial for the kicking team to steal the ball, score and have last activation.

It sure works for Mist.

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4 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

Seems that there are a lot of people that prefer the kicker starts with an MP. Has anybody tried this when the kicker has Shark, Midas, Scalpel, Obulus or Vitriol on their team? Would appear to make it incredibly trivial for the kicking team to steal the ball, score and have last activation.

See my post in the feedback thread. Obviously the same answer can't be used across factions but I was barely able to score turn 1 with Shark.

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I played 2 games against Shark with one kicking and one receiving. I feel like with regular deployment Shark has little problem stealing the ball, generating a momentum, then scoring whenever he feels like it benefits him on his turn. Having him start with a momentum didn't really make much of a difference in that regard. With normal deployment, not only can he still steal and score, but until he does I can't attack any of his players, meaning the score is probably 4-0 at the end of turn one and I only generated momentum with passes. With this alternate deployment, I already have models in my threat range, so I generated more momentum than normal and the first turn ended 4-2 instead of 4-0.

Shark, Vitriol, Midas, Mist, etc are going to score in this format just as easily as before, but at least you can do more to mitigate it since these or other models will be in in your threat range from the beginning. 

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So I've spent the weekend playing the new setup rules v1 and v2.
I filmed version 1 with John Parish and it will go out asap.
My thoughts:
John and I suggest in our post-game that the kicking team need momentum (like home crowd). V2 covers this and it works really well.
V1 uses the alternating players deployment and v2 you put your whole team down. Honestly either way was fine and didn't make much difference.
I did find with v2 that the not being within 3" of a player can cause your players to get locked out on the halfway line. A canny coach can effectively deny 12" (not including model bases so more like 14") if they set up right. I think you should be allowed to set up engaged and it would nef Shark Fish and Midas/Vitriol a bit.
I also noticed that in two games my opponent set up more 1 sided and made a bit of a cage which was hard to break but leaves scoring open. Mash scored turn 1 today which is not normally a thing hehe.
I would love to try this list if I was kicking (suggested by John): Fillet, Tenderiser, Meathook, Truffles, Rage and Boar and put Rage and Boar on the halfway line for some furious ridiculousness. I guess the new rules make you think about taking other players you might not normally (accept Vet Graves - sorry he's just gash).
Finally in ALL 3 games the new deployment had 0 negative impact. I didn't look and go, 'oh I'm so out of position', in fact it made it fun. After turn 1 the game played as normal.
Chris Tamplin and I actually hope that these rules are used and made standard asap rather than awaiting a new season update.

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4 hours ago, Cincinnati GBC said:

I played 2 games against Shark with one kicking and one receiving. I feel like with regular deployment Shark has little problem stealing the ball, generating a momentum, then scoring whenever he feels like it benefits him on his turn. Having him start with a momentum didn't really make much of a difference in that regard. With normal deployment, not only can he still steal and score, but until he does I can't attack any of his players, meaning the score is probably 4-0 at the end of turn one and I only generated momentum with passes. With this alternate deployment, I already have models in my threat range, so I generated more momentum than normal and the first turn ended 4-2 instead of 4-0.

Shark, Vitriol, Midas, Mist, etc are going to score in this format just as easily as before, but at least you can do more to mitigate it since these or other models will be in in your threat range from the beginning. 

That's what I found, Shark still scored and did his thing, but even Knee Slider didn't save him. 

Maybe @Ik-tornados opponent had thought through deployment better than I had though. Definitely new strategies to be explored here. 

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I think there's a learning curve here for sure (and I am definitely at the start of it so I'm not saying it can't be broken or somesuch) but omg, every game I play of the new format is just so much better. Interestingly, it didn't make the games faster. It just meant that the Turn 1 was more interesting and the game could go either way. I have found in almost every game that instead of 12-2 trouncings, they have been much closer - 12-8, 12-10s much more common than I thought. 

If this never becomes standard play I will be so sad - and waiting until Christmas 2018 sounds like purgatory - when I go back to playing 'normal' games it feels so underwhelming now! :)

The Mark 2 rules of momentum + full deployment of receiver are just so interesting. I much prefer that to the alternate deployment. While the receiver can 'box out' the centre line, I have found that is actually a trap in the making - the kicker can stack one side, out of range of one of the centre models and then threaten to annihilate the receiver model, or control the kick (which they make after all's done) to push the ball into the flank they stacked. It's has strangely much more nuance than appears.

I would like to see clarification on ball interception though - if the ball is intercepted by a receiver player does that mean they can put it on any model? (RAW they could but RAI I don't think is intended) and a few of the models like A+G and Brainpan+Memory (B+M?) adnd Granite, just so people know how to play these. I'm sure that's all on the design team's To Do list though.

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