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PITCH FORMATIONS THEORY THREAD

137 posts in this topic
13 minutes ago, tehlon said:

Well, the format doesn't force you to start up close. Maybe that is part of the strategy. Some team comps will want to hang back substantially when kicking off?

It does; both players have to deploy two players on the middle line and the receiver gets to take the first activation.  My opponent usually plays Smoke but couldn't justify taking her because there aren't two players on her team that want to start the game in the thick of the action.

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Played my first game with new format and it got me interested in guild ball again. The first turn is fast furious and game is over much quicker - the thing i WANT from a guild ball game. For me this solution is very good step in right direction and should be considered to be a standard in 4 season. Good job SF.

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In the case of Avarisse & Greede and Brainpan & Memory. The additional model follows the same deployment rules as the rest of their team, they must sit on the half way, deployment, or goal line. They are still deployed at the same time, as they are normally.

 

However, they could be deployed on different lines because they don't count towards the Formation Criteria. For example, you could deploy Brainpan on the deployment line and Memory on the half way line.

 

For other questions, such as Granite, I'd suggest following existing Lawyer's Guild rulings. 

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3 hours ago, Jamie P said:

However, they could be deployed on different lines because they don't count towards the Formation Criteria. For example, you could deploy Brainpan on the deployment line and Memory on the half way line.

Don't count? So I could put both AnG on the center line, along with one other player?

Don't mind BPM being split up, but AnG would traditionally start base to base. That might not matter so much under these rules though, as I only do that to give them range. Don't necessarily need more range starting at the half way lines.

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I think that there's going to be a lot of tactical decisions to make to get the most out of this, and some of that is a lot of fun, but I'm thinking there are going to be some problem models rather than any problems with the concept. 

Granite, for example. My favourite tarpit (by which I mean she annoys the heck out of me when I face her), can now guarantee to start the game in melee with a model deployed on the halfway line. Having her always start engaging one of my models without me able to do anything about it just doesn't sound fun!

 

Granted, that's only "doesn't sound fun". I'd have to try it to know if it causes any serious issue!

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Suddenly I look differently at high armour high de models, or the ones with unpredictable movement, even guys who gain 2 momentum for being hit looks like a good centre liner.

And then against match ups that can gain a control of friendly models needs special consideration, not too close for chaskas boom boxes are you?
I so look forward to this.

I think we soon will develop a cannon of who goes where and who to pair with who and we will develop our own standarised formations

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@Slothrop

I was excited about drafting during placement as well; however the document indicates that teams are picked before deployment:

>Both coaches select their Guild and choose the six-player team that they wish to use for the match (including a Captain and a Mascot)

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19 minutes ago, Chill84 said:

@Slothrop

I was excited about drafting during placement as well; however the document indicates that teams are picked before deployment:

>Both coaches select their Guild and choose the six-player team that they wish to use for the match (including a Captain and a Mascot)

The paragraph before clears this up.

"What more, we encourage you to do so! A full Pre-Match Sequence can be found in the documents linked below, but for those of you just wishing to try this out in a more casual game, a match using Pitch Formations is set up as follows:"

So you pick 6 in casual games when you dont care, but for competitive and testing purposes you use the linked Document at the bottom of the webpage.

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If the kick off is intercepted by the opposing team's mid line deployed model, is the ball considered within the kicking player's half of the pitch (since the player had to be b2b with the line) and subject to being given to any player on the team, or does it not meet the criteria since the ball marker no longer has a physical location on the pitch when possessed by a player?

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2 hours ago, blueboyzcaptain said:

The paragraph before clears this up.

"What more, we encourage you to do so! A full Pre-Match Sequence can be found in the documents linked below, but for those of you just wishing to try this out in a more casual game, a match using Pitch Formations is set up as follows:"

So you pick 6 in casual games when you dont care, but for competitive and testing purposes you use the linked Document at the bottom of the webpage.

that's awesome

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12 hours ago, MechMage said:

It does; both players have to deploy two players on the middle line and the receiver gets to take the first activation.  My opponent usually plays Smoke but couldn't justify taking her because there aren't two players on her team that want to start the game in the thick of the action.

It doesn't say "Have to deploy on the middle line" it says "completely within [18”] of their chosen table edge". Touching the very back of the table is completely within 18 inches. Both of these formations are completely legal. 

 

aH1Gjqr.jpg

Smoke, as the kick off model, is touching the 10" line. Katalyst and Harry are completely within 18". Vitriol and Smoke are completely within the 10". Flask and Mercury are completely within 6".

Tapper and mash are completely within their own 18". Gutter and Friday completely within their 10". Scum and Spigot completely within their 6".

 

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It does specify touching the line, so unfortunately neither of those formations seem legal to me:

"2 models must be deployed completely within 18” of their chosen table edge in base contact with the halfway line."

All the distances have that specification in the rules packet.

So you have to have two models touching the halfway line, two touching the deployment line, and two touching the goal line. The distances listed seem to be to make sure people are on their side of the line, not starting an extra base width forward of it.

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Muh reading comprehension :wacko:

Yeah. I don't like that and will be experimenting with and without the "touching" requirement. If you are playing a squishy team you should not be forced to deploy insanely forward. More choice is more dynamic.

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I'm still a noob, but this seems awesome to me.  I'm scared of filet deploying inside of my body, but at the same time the idea of someone being able to drop a Casket into midfield and be like 'sup' is hilarious to me.

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11 hours ago, Mako said:

I think that there's going to be a lot of tactical decisions to make to get the most out of this, and some of that is a lot of fun, but I'm thinking there are going to be some problem models rather than any problems with the concept. 

Granite, for example. My favourite tarpit (by which I mean she annoys the heck out of me when I face her), can now guarantee to start the game in melee with a model deployed on the halfway line. Having her always start engaging one of my models without me able to do anything about it just doesn't sound fun!

 

Granted, that's only "doesn't sound fun". I'd have to try it to know if it causes any serious issue!

 She cant start the game engaging an enemy model. You are required to deploy atleast 3 inches from an enemy model. I like this rule as it atleast gives furious models a chance, and prohibits models like granite, ben, vox from being to much of a dick right off the bat. Being able to deploy these models much more forward however makes them that much better.

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It's difficult to evaluate this without the context. If it's just another new format for alternative play then ok fine, looks interesting. If it's a change for standard play then KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE! From orbit. With a nuke. Just to be sure.

This feels like a solution looking for a problem - what is designed to do? Speed up play? Nonsense. All it does is is try to jump turn 1, which is the quickest turn in the game. Worse it makes deployment (the least interesting part of the game let's face it) so much longer as people will agonise over choice and placement - and this currently isn't on the clock so games could get even longer.

It seems to deliberately put players in terrible situations that players can easily avoid under the current rules (being forced to be <7" from Fillet is hardly ideal) and is reducing player agency. That first turn is like a ballet, where two players size each other up and move and counter move are made. This just says 'hey, you're screwed whatever you do - have fun?'. Also it will almost certainly lead to situations where if you deploy wrong, you've probably lost the game - that is not good for GB at all. Losing a game from deployment would kill my enjoyment.

Noone I have ever spoken to has said 'hey, this first turn is really boring, can we skip it to where you dangle your players in ludicrous positions?'. And almost certainly, current models are not designed for this kind of forced interaction. It totally kills control play, because models are handed to your opponent.

Genuinely have no idea what this is for but it's not my idea of GB and I don't think I'd want to play it. It's far too boardgamey. And there is already a football boardgame for that...

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So having played 2 games, Union Brisket vs. Fish, Shark and Union Blackheart vs. Hammer Masons, receiving feels way too strong.  Unless kicking with a captain or mascot, the kicker now has to draft first so loses that small advantage.  He also as kicker being forced to deploy on the deploy line cedes the center of the pitch to the receivers best beater who will get an unobstructed activation due to no momentum.  And, obviously, you don't have the ball if kicking.

 

All of these together meant that the kicker felt (once me, once my opponent) that they had even less agency than before because the receiver could absolutely and irrevocably control the pace of the first turn in part due to the unexpected complication of deployment issues but also due to the huge advantage the receiver gains from the format.

 

Our suggestion would be that the receiver has to mimic the deployment position of the kicker.  So kicker starts by deploying a model with the ball on his own deploy line.  Receiver then must deploy a player on his deployment line.  When the kicker chooses his next player to deploy, whichever line he chooses to place this player (mid, deploy, or goal) the receiver must match this line choice.  Thus players in effect march out into the pitch by their positions and their opponent mirror this.  (Announcer callsstarting lineups by a position and the two teams each send in that player.)  The net effect is that the kicker now gets to control the mid field as he chooses rather than ceding it to the receiver and he might force the receivers draft order due to desired positioning.

 

Edit to add, Shark legendary as an 8" pulse is 100% not ok in this format.  Jac getting midfield on deployment is only 80% not ok. 

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1 hour ago, Refused8778 said:

 She cant start the game engaging an enemy model. You are required to deploy atleast 3 inches from an enemy model. I like this rule as it atleast gives furious models a chance, and prohibits models like granite, ben, vox from being to much of a dick right off the bat. Being able to deploy these models much more forward however makes them that much better.

granite gets a free jog after kick off.

 

39 minutes ago, missing1leg said:

Our suggestion would be that the receiver has to mimic the deployment position of the kicker.  So kicker starts by deploying a model with the ball on his own deploy line.  Receiver then must deploy a player on his deployment line.  When the kicker chooses his next player to deploy, whichever line he chooses to place this player (mid, deploy, or goal) the receiver must match this line choice.  Thus players in effect march out into the pitch by their positions and their opponent mirror this.  (Announcer callsstarting lineups by a position and the two teams each send in that player.)  The net effect is that the kicker now gets to control the mid field as he chooses rather than ceding it to the receiver and he might force the receivers draft order due to desired positioning.

That doesn't stop the receiver from saying "i'm fillet and i kill this model" first activation. I don't even think that stops shark from legendary goal turn one either. It just forces draft order, which doesn't change much. The most important player spots are the front 2, and if you force the receiver to place there then they don't care cause they know exactly where at least one model is which is more or less the same as before where you just place the back 4 first then the front 2.

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What it does is let the kicker deploy a model first on the centerline which based on placement can change who fillet (or hammer or shark or whatever captain) can get to.  The point isn't they don't care about getting on the center line, the point is the receiver doesn't get to choose to deploy on the center until after the kicker places there.  So the kicker can limit the access to targets.

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38 minutes ago, missing1leg said:

What it does is let the kicker deploy a model first on the centerline which based on placement can change who fillet (or hammer or shark or whatever captain) can get to.  The point isn't they don't care about getting on the center line, the point is the receiver doesn't get to choose to deploy on the center until after the kicker places there.  So the kicker can limit the access to targets.

I must be missing something cause I don't see how that changes anything.

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Currently, the kicker deploys his kicking model on his deploy line.  Then, the receiver can place his captain, beater, whatever (boar is particularly efficient here) directly opposite the kicker on the midline.  Three things just happened.  1. That full influence player has a garunteed target in my kicking model who amost definitely cannot get out of threat range and still get the ball to a good place across mid field.  2. Due to the possibility of the kick off being intercepted the receiver has started to dictate my kicking direction.  3. Because the receiver got to place on midline first, he gets to be the one who partially dictates where my midline players go as the kicker due to the minimum 3" distance.  

 

By forcing the receiver player to match the line, and not letting him choose to place his best player first thing on the mid line, what happens is the kicker can partially dictate the terms of engagement.  If I place a resilient model (tough hide, glut mass, poised, sturdy, whatever) directly in front of my kicking model on.the mid line, your beater now has to be 3" displace to one side or the other at a minimum.  So I've protected my kicking model and given you a worse target for your opening alpha strike.  You now must place a player on the mid line.  So I get to see where that player goes and I can plant my second mid line player  to either avoid your first threat, support my first place, or deny you space I don't want your models because I want that gap to kick through.  Currently all those decisions are in the hand of the receiver and on top of an unmitigated full influence dump AND the ball AND the last draft pick (assuming not kicking with captain or mascot) it just too much to also dictate the terms of how I as the kicking team get to kick off the ball.

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If the receiving team is loading up their best beater and completely ignoring the ball with their first activation, is there no way to punish them for this? If you kick off with that in mind shouldn't you be able to collect the ball with your first activation? If you don't score right then you can at least use the ball to your advantage after that. Unless you get a really bad scatter I feel like it should be hard to let your opponent send in a fully loaded beater with their first activation and still allow them to collect the ball. 

I do agree though that having to suffer through a first activation beating from Fillet, Hammer, or anyone else without any counter play isn't very appealing. I don't think it's game ending necessarily but definitely not fun. 

What if the kicking team places the kicker, then the receiving team places 2 players, then the kicking teams places 2, then the receiving team places 2, then the kicking team places 2, then the receiving team places 2, then the kicking team places their last player. I'm not sure this makes it better, but it at least gives both players a chance to react during deployment instead of allowing the receiving team to always react to the kickers deployment. It also allows the kicker to place the last model of deployment. This allows them to have at least a slight reaction before the receiver takes their first activation. As it is now the receiver places the last player and takes the first activation, allowing them to set a player up to avoid parting blows and whatever else might get in the way. If the kicker places the last player maybe they can at least prevent the receiver from setting up the perfect first activation. 

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So taking for granted the only deployment slots that matter are the 4 on the mid line, you just let the receiver completely dictate all 4 of those by placing both his midliners after the actual kicking model.  

 

Because both teams are so spread out and interceptions are a thing, it is actually extremely likely for the ball to wind up out of range of either team.  And as the receiver, it's much better to take a full influence beat down or control sweep legendary activation than it is to pick up the ball and make it live for your opponent.  Them getting super deep into your own team by overextending is preferable even especially if they aren't going to have a valid pass target because as the receiver, you split their two midline players by approx 7"

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4 hours ago, blueboyzcaptain said:

granite gets a free jog after kick off.

 

That doesn't stop the receiver from saying "i'm fillet and i kill this model" first activation. I don't even think that stops shark from legendary goal turn one either. It just forces draft order, which doesn't change much. The most important player spots are the front 2, and if you force the receiver to place there then they don't care cause they know exactly where at least one model is which is more or less the same as before where you just place the back 4 first then the front 2.

Totally forgot about the free move! Yeah thats just down right mean!

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I still don't see how getting your pick of where to place models in the midline changes how any beater team destroys those two players placed in the middle. Does having the two players closer together let them do something I'm not aware of? All I see is you place models they place models then the same thing happens regardless, only you picked the spot you prefer to die in.

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