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PITCH FORMATIONS THEORY THREAD

139 posts in this topic
7 minutes ago, Isante said:

Do you shill for everything or just SF?

HEY! INAPPROPRIATE! AND DONT FORGET TO PREORDER TRASH PANDA: METROPOLIS™ AT GENCON!

 

(in before lock)

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I'm not locking it, but I would like things to calm down before someone takes offence and it gets out of hand.

 

I see a few issues with this (mostly that I have squishy morticians on the field usually that like to use that first turn to set up control, and don't want to be forced to play with only 5 men from turn 1 onward ;) )

It could also be fun. Both views are valid I think.

 

I suspect it will skew the balance of guilds and models, making takeouts easier to start and goal threats riskier, but previous models aren't balanced with that in mind so there's definitely stuff to look at before it gets dismissed or adopted!

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4 minutes ago, Cincinnati GBC said:

I wouldn't mind hearing what the obvious flaws are. Is it just that now everyone can steal and score on turn 1 or are there others? Honestly, that "flaw" seems like something you might have to plan for and adjust strategies to make it not happen. Maybe that's impossible, but it sounds like something a beta test would be good for. 

If you feel there are other flaws though I'd like to hear them. I really like this format but want to make sure it's balanced before I go all in. 

 

- You hit one of the main ones.  The 'Vitriol' problem of being able to steal the ball t1 with ease and score can now apply to almost every guild in the game.

- The kicking player can essentially 'zone' out a good kick by kicking towards the table edge where he has placed a model in the middle line towards the edge of the board.   Hard to explain this one in writing without a diagram but basically fast/long range kicking models can really fuck with things especially when you have alternating deployments.

- Slow teams (looking at Brewers) now will have players starting even farther away from the enemy.  They are also now forced to be spread out which definitely hurts them.

 

There are a few more that I see off initial looks but I gotta get some work done today.

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Although I get what you are trying to do (simulate skipping 1st turn) teams like Butchers or Brewers lay down conditions and damage turn 1 while fast teams use turn 1 to maneuver. This allows those fast teams to maneuver fast players up and set up plays while taking away from the conditions/ damage that a beater team would do turn 1.

 

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12 minutes ago, Isante said:

- You hit one of the main ones.  The 'Vitriol' problem of being able to steal the ball t1 with ease and score can now apply to almost every guild in the game.

- The kicking player can essentially 'zone' out a good kick by kicking towards the table edge where he has placed a model in the middle line towards the edge of the board.   Hard to explain this one in writing without a diagram but basically fast/long range kicking models can really fuck with things especially when you have alternating deployments.

- Slow teams (looking at Brewers) now will have players starting even farther away from the enemy.  They are also now forced to be spread out which definitely hurts them.

I think you're discounting the fact that all twelve models in the game now alternate being placed in these required positions, and the kicking model has to go first, and the four regular players of each team are chosen during deployment. The kick lockout thing you're describing seems hard to pull off in a way that actually completely denies the opponent from getting the ball safely, at least more than once.

And, for the slow teams... sorta-but-not-really? Definitely will be a problem if you fuck up your deployment, but in the standard deployment all models are at least 16" from all other models except the kicker. In this new thing, the farthest-back models are >20" from the enemy deployment line, but they're only >12" from the enemies at the center line, which is closer than they could have been before. And that's discounting the people the Brewers get to put at center and deployment line. 

There's certainly going to be balance concerns with the new system, cause there are in the current system. And I don't think this magically solves all of the game's issues. But what exactly will develop in the first turn (and whether that will be a net positive or net negative for play experience) with this thing seems way harder to predict than you're giving it credit for. 

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1 minute ago, Slothrop said:

I think you're discounting the fact that all twelve models in the game now alternate being placed in these required positions, and the kicking model has to go first, and the four regular players of each team are chosen during deployment. The kick lockout thing you're describing seems hard to pull off in a way that actually completely denies the opponent from getting the ball safely, at least more than once.

And, for the slow teams... sorta-but-not-really? Definitely will be a problem if you fuck up your deployment, but in the standard deployment all models are at least 16" from all other models except the kicker. In this new thing, the farthest-back models are >20" from the enemy deployment line, but they're only >12" from the enemies at the center line, which is closer than they could have been before. And that's discounting the people the Brewers get to put at center and deployment line. 

There's certainly going to be balance concerns with the new system, cause there are in the current system. But what exactly will develop in the first turn with this thing seems way harder to predict than you're giving it credit for. 

The kick lockout thing makes me think of Jac - you can potentially make it so the opponent has to get in a very bad spot in order to retrieve the ball - and now the other team will be more spread out, less likely to be able to do anything about it etc.

I imagine mostly defensive oriented models will be put on the mid line aka Greyscales, Hoist etc.  So most people aren't going to do much to them before they get out of dodge.

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4 minutes ago, Slothrop said:

I think you're discounting the fact that all twelve models in the game now alternate being placed in these required positions, and the kicking model has to go first, and the four regular players of each team are chosen during deployment. The kick lockout thing you're describing seems hard to pull off in a way that actually completely denies the opponent from getting the ball safely, at least more than once.

As it stands now, the kicking team will always be able to secure at least one flank where they deny the opponent deploying 6" from the table edge and that's assuming the receiving team deploys on the other flank as their 1st or 2nd deployment. It's hard to set up a complete denial, but you can make the kick significantly more beneficial for the receiving team.

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My initial reaction is this seems super fun and is certainly worth testing, but I do have some skepticism that there isn't a few models out there that just break the format entirely. The more and more I think about it, it actually gets pretty deep.

 

For Scoring teams: If I am kicking off it seems I'll have a really easy time going for a first activation goal, so maybe that makes enemy ball controlling players better by default. If I am receiving it also seems like my ability to score (and score again) is greatly increased. Center linemen (fangtooths/krakens/ghasts/bricks etc) are particularly effective and Benediction could be the king of the middle line. However most of these players tend to be easy to bully due to low defensive stats, and you'll have more players near beaters by default, so losing a momentum race is certainly a consideration. If you can go balls to the wall tempo goal scoring it seems hard, at a glance, to stop it.

For Beater teams: Place your slow dudes up front and your faster guys in the middle. Maybe you have a single striker/support model back along with the mascot for ball retrieval. You certainly would need to think about your list if you run an abundance of slowish models because you don't want someone to get left out of the scrum. You also have to be careful because whoever is in the front is an instant target for momentum/damage generation. For example, as nice as it would be to have Ox 1 in the middle somewhere, dude is going to go down like a sack of potatoes if left exposed. Your Boars, Seenahs, Kat 2s are all juicy targets when by themselves. I almost think you have to take a strong ball control model, or striker of your own, to offset the striking angles. Seems harder than ever to stop T1 goals.

Mixed teams: Maybe get the best or worst of both worlds in this? Its nice to have a variety of players to fill deployment slots and adjust based on kicking receiving. Still feels to me it is a race for goals, but you have the option to press that advantage yourself while you can? Obviously some sort of combination of the previous two paragraphs depending on your guild/line up.

 

The only thing I really don't like is the fact the kick-off model is the first guy on the pitch on the 10" line and you kind of counter place around that. Feels like a disadvantage, but maybe having a 3rd model "on the line of scrimmage" is strong? I'd rather deploy with this scheme and them nominate the kicker at the end and let that model be wherever they choose to be, but maybe add a rule that they can't cross the half way point before punting it off.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Slothrop said:

I think you're discounting the fact that all twelve models in the game now alternate being placed in these required positions, and the kicking model has to go first, and the four regular players of each team are chosen during deployment. The kick lockout thing you're describing seems hard to pull off in a way that actually completely denies the opponent from getting the ball safely, at least more than once.

And, for the slow teams... sorta-but-not-really? Definitely will be a problem if you fuck up your deployment, but in the standard deployment all models are at least 16" from all other models except the kicker. In this new thing, the farthest-back models are >20" from the enemy deployment line, but they're only >12" from the enemies at the center line, which is closer than they could have been before. And that's discounting the people the Brewers get to put at center and deployment line. 

There's certainly going to be balance concerns with the new system, cause there are in the current system. And I don't think this magically solves all of the game's issues. But what exactly will develop in the first turn (and whether that will be a net positive or net negative for play experience) with this thing seems way harder to predict than you're giving it credit for. 

Are you sure on the order there? It says they select the kicker and says where to put that model but I though it sounded like the receiving team places first.

  • Determine the Receiving and Kicking Coach. The Kicking Coach selects a player from their team to be the kicker. The kicker must be deployed touching the ‘deployment line’ (the line across the Pitch that is 10” up from that Coach’s edge)
  • Starting with the Receiving Coach, both Coaches take turns selecting a player and deploying them on the Pitch, however, both teams must meet all of the ‘Formation Criteria’ outlined below

Clarification on this?

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1 minute ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Are you sure on the order there? It says they select the kicker and says where to put that model but I though it sounded like the receiving team places first.

  • Determine the Receiving and Kicking Coach. The Kicking Coach selects a player from their team to be the kicker. The kicker must be deployed touching the ‘deployment line’ (the line across the Pitch that is 10” up from that Coach’s edge)
  • Starting with the Receiving Coach, both Coaches take turns selecting a player and deploying them on the Pitch, however, both teams must meet all of the ‘Formation Criteria’ outlined below

Clarification on this?

Oh so you are saying the kicking player is nominated ahead of time, and his placement restricted, but not actually the first man on the pitch? I read it as they had to be the first guy down. Yeah that makes a big difference.

Lawyers?

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1 minute ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Are you sure on the order there? It says they select the kicker and says where to put that model but I though it sounded like the receiving team places first.

  • Determine the Receiving and Kicking Coach. The Kicking Coach selects a player from their team to be the kicker. The kicker must be deployed touching the ‘deployment line’ (the line across the Pitch that is 10” up from that Coach’s edge)
  • Starting with the Receiving Coach, both Coaches take turns selecting a player and deploying them on the Pitch, however, both teams must meet all of the ‘Formation Criteria’ outlined below

Clarification on this?

Hey that's a good question, yeah. I read that as meaning they deploy the kicker as soon as the kicker is chosen, but this might actually change a lot?

11 minutes ago, Matt_A said:

As it stands now, the kicking team will always be able to secure at least one flank where they deny the opponent deploying 6" from the table edge and that's assuming the receiving team deploys on the other flank as their 1st or 2nd deployment. It's hard to set up a complete denial, but you can make the kick significantly more beneficial for the receiving team.

Even if a receiving player is forced to be minimum 7.1" from the edge of the pitch, if the ball scatters and land magically just barely not touching the edge, that player only has to move 5.1" inches to grab the ball. This really doesn't seem that bad to me since the receiving player should be able to see it coming.

Again, I do think people will catch someone with an early Jac knockoff kill off of kicking or something. That will happen. But I think there's more counterplay than you guys are giving it credit for. Especially since whoever is doing the "denying" (that is, whoever is deployed 3" from the edge of the pitch) can be attacked/moved/whatever in the first activation, and during that activation they won't have any Momentum. I think Harry would very much enjoy tossing Jac off the pitch activation one, for example. 

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Good spot indeed, but just a typo. The kicking model is both determined and placed first. 

 

If the kicker is placed last it leaves far too many options for the ball to be 'killed' by a kick-off into a deadspot. This is the last thing we want.

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I'm gonna need some time for this to sink in.. my initial reaction was a bit negative as my carefully thought out turn 1 sequence is useless in this format. Started to absorb it a bit and as Tapper is My captain, its a massive boost, probably tips the scales in favour of Brewers more than anybody else. Apart from Granite who can get right in your face from Kick Off. 

Certainly mixes everything up, will be trying it very soon.

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6 minutes ago, CurlyPaul said:

I'm gonna need some time for this to sink in.. my initial reaction was a bit negative as my carefully thought out turn 1 sequence is useless in this format. Started to absorb it a bit and as Tapper is My captain, its a massive boost, probably tips the scales in favour of Brewers more than anybody else. Apart from Granite who can get right in your face from Kick Off. 

Certainly mixes everything up, will be trying it very soon.

Not that I don't think brewers like this deployment buuuutt...I've got a turn 1 first activation net and goal to sell you :-)

(Point being I think different types of teams enjoy this format differently and possibly equally)

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1 hour ago, Jamie P said:

Good spot indeed, but just a typo. The kicking model is both determined and placed first. 

 

If the kicker is placed last it leaves far too many options for the ball to be 'killed' by a kick-off into a deadspot. This is the last thing we want.

Quoting for notification, but a couple sharp eyed viewers asked the Avarisse and Greede/Brainpan and Memory question that is a good one, since they break the mold. Good old Avarisee and Greede, never been a problem ;)

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Also on the questions front; I assume Granite can still get her free jog and still snap up a kick off the same as the previous ruling.  It's worth asking because it now requires almost nothing out of the ordinary for it to happen.

 

 

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Played one game of this tonight and I'm a lot less enthusiastic about it now.  The receiving player has a big advantage, even more than normal.  Not only do they start with the ball, but they have the first activation and are guarantied that the kicker has no momentum at that point and they'll have someone in range to put a full stack of influence into.  Seems like the game hinges on proper deployment which the receiver can do reactively.  It felt like my inferior deployment lost me the game before the first influence was spent, more than any other newbie mistake I made learning the game did.  I'll need to get more reps before making a final judgement but I definitely wouldn't recommend this format to anyone new to the game.

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I will give that formation play does but more pressure on good deployment and is less "new user friendly". I plan to try this tomorrow to give some feedback, but I also feel like something needs to be tweaked in the early game to force engagement more quickly

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1 hour ago, MechMage said:

Played one game of this tonight and I'm a lot less enthusiastic about it now.  The receiving player has a big advantage, even more than normal.  Not only do they start with the ball, but they have the first activation and are guarantied that the kicker has no momentum at that point and they'll have someone in range to put a full stack of influence into.  Seems like the game hinges on proper deployment which the receiver can do reactively.  It felt like my inferior deployment lost me the game before the first influence was spent, more than any other newbie mistake I made learning the game did.  I'll need to get more reps before making a final judgement but I definitely wouldn't recommend this format to anyone new to the game.

I just dont see how the kicking player can avoid this. Maybe if during deployment you place the kicking model then the reciever must place 2 models? the Kicking team also needs Mom turn 1. There has to be some drawback for getting a free 6 stack into a player first activation if these things are to much. Maybe captains must start on the back 2 lines?

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I'm not sure about giving the kicker momentum.  In theory if they set up well it would make the first activation goal after a good kick off that much easier.

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the reciever can avoid this by setting up a player sorta wide on the midline and just giving that player the ball with someone else. how are you going to manage a one activation goal that way? and one activation goals are the ones we are trying to avoid most of the time. with players so close momentum will come no matter what. Or am I missing something obvious?

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2 hours ago, MechMage said:

Played one game of this tonight and I'm a lot less enthusiastic about it now.  The receiving player has a big advantage, even more than normal.  Not only do they start with the ball, but they have the first activation and are guarantied that the kicker has no momentum at that point and they'll have someone in range to put a full stack of influence into.  Seems like the game hinges on proper deployment which the receiver can do reactively.  It felt like my inferior deployment lost me the game before the first influence was spent, more than any other newbie mistake I made learning the game did.  I'll need to get more reps before making a final judgement but I definitely wouldn't recommend this format to anyone new to the game.

Well, the format doesn't force you to start up close. Maybe that is part of the strategy. Some team comps will want to hang back substantially when kicking off?

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12 minutes ago, tehlon said:

Well, the format doesn't force you to start up close. Maybe that is part of the strategy. Some team comps will want to hang back substantially when kicking off?

yes it does, you must place base contact with the line you are starting on. which means you are starting with 2 models probably within 4-7 inches of an opponents model.

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