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TanE

VetGraves and Vileswarm – ideas for improvement

I love both miniatures, but they have much less tabletime than they should have. Peronally I use Vileswarm sometimes, but because of Cosset + Dirge it is not very often. And even if I don’t field Cosset, Dirge is the better one to snap the ball.

VetGraves tabletime is even more worse. If I use him for table control, Ghast is better because of MOM-KD on row 2 and Caskets legendary gives me 2 VP directly and one round of majority. As Defensive Midfielder, B&M gives me more tools. Memory is fun and generates momentum better.

How could both be more usefull and gives us new and suitable options to choose between?

 

I like the theme of the rats. Most won’t like to hug them. What do you think about these ideas to show the invasion of the rats:

Vileswarm (additional character trait):

Version 1:

„Eeeeeeek“ (Vileswarm) – Models engaged by the named model suffer [-1] DEF.

OR

Version 2:

„Eeeeeeek“ (Vileswarm) – Models engaged by the named model suffer [+1] TN for kicks and/or attacks and/or character plays.

 

VetGraves (additional play):

Legendary Play - „Come to me my little friends!“ (Graves) - Models engaged by the named model suffer Version 1 (or 2) of Vileswarms trait.

 

Version 1 gives a boost within the own team, version 2 is a kind of control piece. Both could be nasty for the opponent but are not over the top, because there are ways to solve the problem from his view (going away, knocking them down,…).

I simply like the idea, that the rats are swarming the engaged players to irritate them. B)

Another idea, but I think less fluffy: Vileswarm get „Follow up“. That can be used to push the enemy player into the own team to get a crowding out or to place a second attack after pushing them around.

 

What do you think could improve them without a deeper redesign?

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Give vGraves Get Over Hear [Vileswarm] and remove Packmaster and give him: Sticky: When this model targets an enemy model with a Parting Blow, it gets +1 Tac for the duration of the Parting Blow.

Give Vileswarm Make it Rain and Assist [Graves]

Give oGraves Contempt [Vileswarm]: During the named friendly model's activation, this model has no melee zone.

This way VS's charge is something worth respecting and vGraves can exert so respectable area control.

 

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I like the idea that Vileswarm should have "get over here" from V Graves. Maybe he should be immune to the poison & damage when it dies too. It would make it a usable crowding out piece and make up for the loss of TAC on Vet G.

Maybe if they were both in base to base contact V Gr could choose items from Vileswarm' s playbook. Not wrapping, the playbook is too short but perhaps from a wrap on his own or as an alternative to the first 3 boxes. A momentous 2" push could come in useful. 

So 7 hits could give :>>:& 2 on his own playbook and :>>: from the rats. Folks might want to take them with that as an option!:P

Bill

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14 hours ago, MechMage said:

Give oGraves Contempt [Vileswarm]: During the named friendly model's activation, this model has no melee zone

Could you explain what you want to achieve with this? Maybe I understand it wrong: I read it, that Vileswarm has no melee zone during his activation. So he can't engage someone? Maybe you meant, that enemie models in melee zone of Vileswarm have no melee zone?

9 hours ago, cacklad said:

Something that represents this on the pitch.....

giphy.gif

This! :wub:

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On 28.6.2017 at 3:51 PM, MechMage said:

@TanE oGraves has no melee zone during Vileswarm's activation to prevent him triggering Assist[Graves].

Maybe assist may trigger on [veteran] not [Graves]? Otherwise there is one additional argument not to field Vileswarm with oGraves.

 

2 hours ago, Ruffy said:

Maybe Reanimate on Vileswarm?

Then the explosion doesn't make so much sense, I think.

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Now that I think about it, it'd be better to rework Packmaster rather than cluttering up oGraves's card.

Packmaster [Vileswarm]: 6" Aura: While within this aura, the friendly named model gains Assist[Graves]

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One of the major problems with vetGraves is, that old Graves has tooled up. It is the same with Spigot. 

If we changed the cards, I'd say that if a model that has a strong character play like Tooled Up, that is really goddamn strong, both old and vet should have it. The rest can be changed, because in that case Tooled Up is not one of the major factors anymore.

If we then change Vileswarm, he should synergize around the lines of "Contagious Swarm(Vileswarm): If the named friendly model engages the same target as this model, if this model causes damage to an enemy model, the enemy model suffers the poison condition."
vetGraves doesnt really generate momentum with his damage, except the one damage on his two. That already might balance it out, but on the other hand his playbook could be changed aswell, though I actually kinda like it. 

And to make it more shenanigan-ish, typical mortician style: Vileswarm gains Packmaster (Graves, Veteran): If this model charges an enemy model that is engaged by the named friendly model, this model gains +1 Damage to playbook damage results.

Additionally: Make them drown!: Enemy models within 3" of this model suffer -2/-2 movement 

Also, I like that gif: vetGraves Trait: Nowhere to hide: If this model uses Creation, the created model immediately makes an attack with +3 Tac. 

Also get rid of that goddamn explosion, or change it: Before this model suffers the taken out condition, it immediately makes an attack. There are so many, you might not get rid of all of them, amiright? Just some brainstorming though.

So some of this might be viable, but I guess the models should concentrate on one thing, either control or damage. And if we have to change Cosset and Dirge for vetGraves and Vileswarm, it should either be really strong control or really strong damage. 

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@Cole I don't know if I agree about Tooled Up being the deciding factor.  Take Veteran Spigot for example.  He loses Tooled Up, sure, but he gains Goad, another very powerful character play.  vSpigot never sees play, but it has more to do with the fact that he's a striker without a 2" reach or buyable dodge and taking him means either denying Friday her 5+/1 defense or putting two strikers right next to each other, effectively halving their coverage.  It's a variety of factors but Tooled Up isn't the be all and end all of playability.  vRage sees more play than his season one counterpart after all.

I think vGrave's unpopularity is a result of his lack of a strong specialized identity.  He's sort of a midfield control piece but also sort of a fighter.  oGraves lives and breaths his efficiency and serves as a great battery between cheap powerful plays like Tooled Up and powerful traits like Crucial Artery and Damaged Target that combo well with high impact plays like Scything Blows.  There's a very obvious very effective use for oGraves.  vGraves is decent in multiple situations but never great and he's competing with specialists in those roles, Ghast and Casket.

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On 2.7.2017 at 4:47 PM, MechMage said:

@Cole I don't know if I agree about Tooled Up being the deciding factor.  Take Veteran Spigot for example.  He loses Tooled Up, sure, but he gains Goad, another very powerful character play.  vSpigot never sees play, but it has more to do with the fact that he's a striker without a 2" reach or buyable dodge and taking him means either denying Friday her 5+/1 defense or putting two strikers right next to each other, effectively halving their coverage.  It's a variety of factors but Tooled Up isn't the be all and end all of playability.  vRage sees more play than his season one counterpart after all.

I think vGrave's unpopularity is a result of his lack of a strong specialized identity.  He's sort of a midfield control piece but also sort of a fighter.  oGraves lives and breaths his efficiency and serves as a great battery between cheap powerful plays like Tooled Up and powerful traits like Crucial Artery and Damaged Target that combo well with high impact plays like Scything Blows.  There's a very obvious very effective use for oGraves.  vGraves is decent in multiple situations but never great and he's competing with specialists in those roles, Ghast and Casket.

True, it might actually only be a thing with vetGraves and oGraves. Union doesnt really need Tooled Up, and Brewers aswell. For those it's more of a topping I reckon. For Morticians it's asctually quiet a loss however.

Morticians lose a great piece if they take vetGraves. He's  not terrible, but oGraves is, simply put, better than vetGraves. 

What I also find really disturbing is that he has DEF3/Arm2 and still 14 Hitpoints. As far as I can tell that doesn't stop people from killing him with ease. Maybe boost his defense and give Morticians a strong Defensive player on the field? Like, boost his Def up to 4 as long as Vileswarm is within 4" or something like that. Ofcourse he's a mortician model, so he can't have it that eas as we actually have to do work for our bonuses. :D 

If we keep their playbooks aside, whatcha thinking about that?

Rotatory efficiency(Vileswarm/veteran Graves): Both players have this ability with the respective other model in paranthesis.

If this model activates before the named friendly model, that model gains either +1 DEF or +1 Damage on playbook damage results for the rest of the turn.

Boost veteran Graves HP by at least 3, so he's actually a defensive centerpiece. No matter what is changed about him. Seriously.

Control in and of itself doesn't win you the game. Scoring and killing does. Therefore:

Veteran Graves:

Drag it henceforth! (Vileswarm): If this model successfully passes the ball to the named friendly model, the named friendly model may give up possession of the ball immediately.

 

Heroic: Leave it as it is (Vileswarm)

Named friendly model immediately gives up possession of the ball.

 

I think that is actually the best shit I ever came up with. At least in my opinion. :D 

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14 hours ago, MechMage said:

@Cole That's a pretty interesting take.  What inspired you to give Vileswarm out of activation unsnapping?

Ball Shenanigans with a rat swarm. Basically the idea of a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge carpet of rats that moves like the zombies from The War Z. It helps get the ball back a bit. And if he has the ball, vetGraves can get it back from him. I also oriented myself a bit on the Engineer Mascots, which are really fucking powerful, so why not meet halfway with a mortician mascot. 

Morticians always had to fight for what other guilds automatically got. It's basically mother in hardmode.

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5 hours ago, Cole said:

 

Morticians always had to fight for what other guilds automatically got. It's basically mother in hardmode.

Always? Really? Or just this season?

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This Season. Season 1 and 2 was more or less the Obulus show with Rage, Mist, Silence and Ghast. A&G were within his team often, too.

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23 hours ago, Bertmac said:

Always? Really? Or just this season?

Morticians use a very different set of tools to most guilds. If you want to play a standard football list, it was quite hard to do without heavy union involvement, and they also couldn't play the same sort of beatdown game that other guild could. So if you were used to using Flint or Velocity (Midas or Shark) as a striker, you have to work really hard to get Bonesaw (Obulous) to do similar things, but Morts could do something different.

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