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Warpstoned

Single or double captain in the "new" OPD?

Hi guys.

I have started to dabble a bit in Engineers as of late and while they are really fun - they are giving me some roster headaches. Since no model is truly a write off, but rather everything has its specific use.

Previously I were enjoying the drafting a lot with being able to delay the captain choice in response to my opponent, then enter OPD update, and it became a lot trickier. Also, knowing kick off or receiveing was a huge boon I feel.

I am leaning more and more towards single captain roster (either captain), and tinkering the roster to that captains needs in a larger degree. But in the back of my head there is something telling me that going single cap could be missing out.

I do feel like the Engineers can tool their choice of rank and file players a lot more than many other Guilds, and hence captain is not as crucial as for others.

How are you guys coming to terms with your rosters? Pin Vice? Ballista? Both?

Discuss!

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I think there is space for both, but I see singe captain pin Vice ALOT more then I see both captains and I'm yet to see single captain Ballista. 

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I played single Ballista forever.  But since both are viable into almost any matchup, a single captain list makes sense for us more than for other teams.

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58 minutes ago, RTOAHB said:

I think there is space for both, but I see singe captain pin Vice ALOT more then I see both captains and I'm yet to see single captain Ballista. 

It's the exact opposite around here.  Sometimes both make the roster but usually only Balista sees the table.  I personally don't know the Engineers matchups well enough to judge when to use who.

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I've been using ballista exclusively for a while now. But I have been noting the matchups where I'd prefer pin vice. That being said I do have both since with 10 model roster I can bring all the in guild models I need.

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17 hours ago, blueboyzcaptain said:

But I have been noting the matchups where I'd prefer pin vice.

Would you mind expanding on which matchups you'd prefer to take PV?

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Double captain is the better choice, mainly because with 10 slots, the extra slot you get by going single captain doesn't have a particularly good player to put there. Even if you don't plan on using both captains, it can influence what captain your opponent chooses to play into you.

31 minutes ago, TehMik said:

Would you mind expanding on which matchups you'd prefer to take PV?

Shark Fish, potentially. 

I need to do more testing with it, but pin vice into alchemists may be decent. 

Pin vice into fillet (although ballista can do this just fine as well)

MAYBE, maybe into vet rage union. Mainly because I feel that may be one of the weakest matchups for ballista. 
 

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6 hours ago, TehMik said:

Would you mind expanding on which matchups you'd prefer to take PV?

Since I prefer the 3-0 game with ballista I've been having troubles with Tapper brewers, Farmers in general (although I think this has less to do with captain pick and more to do with their outragous strengths, millstone can go to hell), Honour masons, and the mirror matchup. So I'm starting to practice pin vice into those matchups to see how that goes.

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To be honest, the only game I won at the Bourbon Trail Open was the mirror into Ballista and I brought Pin Vice in the only game I played her in.  I was clocked out and down 11 - 10.  Most of his points were from the clock.  I went into a 3-4 life Velocity with a fully loaded Pin Vice because she was who PV could reach.  I forgot to activate Deletion and ended up taking all 6 inf and hitting the NM 1 every time except the one time I hit 2 and took her out with 6 seconds to spare.  I said all that to say this.  When Ballista is the most popular captain, Pin Vice gives an option for something he's not prepared for.  So maybe 2 captain is good.  

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Related question: Does the captain line up of the engineers change the opponents captain choice at all? For which factions?

Only thing I probably, from the top of my head, can see changing is that a mono pin vice list probably brings out corsair? Mono captain could possibly be a factor in the mirror as well maybe.

But other than that, I don't really see Alchemists, Union, Butchers, Masons, Morts, Brewers, Hunters changing their captain choice that much regarding what the engineer players captain situation looks like.

The other side of the coin is what is the downside of taking 2 captains?
- For me, it means either exchanging Pin vice for Salvo. Or exchanging Ballista for vetVelocity (I like her with Pin vice, but not so much with ballista).

  1. Ballista, Pin Vice, Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus
  2. Ballista,                Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus, Salvo
  3.                Pin Vice, Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus, vetVelocity

I by no means claim to be an engineer expert, but I enjoy the discussion and your arguments to try and learn more.

 

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5 hours ago, Warpstoned said:

Related question: Does the captain line up of the engineers change the opponents captain choice at all? For which factions?

Only thing I probably, from the top of my head, can see changing is that a mono pin vice list probably brings out corsair? Mono captain could possibly be a factor in the mirror as well maybe.

But other than that, I don't really see Alchemists, Union, Butchers, Masons, Morts, Brewers, Hunters changing their captain choice that much regarding what the engineer players captain situation looks like.

The other side of the coin is what is the downside of taking 2 captains?
- For me, it means either exchanging Pin vice for Salvo. Or exchanging Ballista for vetVelocity (I like her with Pin vice, but not so much with ballista).

  1. Ballista, Pin Vice, Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus
  2. Ballista,                Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus, Salvo
  3.                Pin Vice, Mother, Ratchet, Hoist, Compound, oVelocity, Harry, Colossus, Locus, vetVelocity

I by no means claim to be an engineer expert, but I enjoy the discussion and your arguments to try and learn more.

 

It's actually having ballista that influences the captain choice more so I believe. 

But lets go through each of the teams:

Fish - They should probably drop corsair regardless, however mono pin vice should guarantee a corsair drop. 

Alchemists - Doesn't really change much

Union - Vet Rage can play into either, for sure. Blackheart may be a better choice vs. Pin Vice, so if you go mono captain you open up the opponent's choices. 

Butchers - They will likely be mono fillet, and Ox is super disadvantaged vs. ballista anyway

Masons - Hammer becomes a much more viable option vs. Pin Vice, so if you go mono pin vice that could be an issue. 

Morts - Obby is probably the better choice overall, but Scalpel could play into ballista. She really doesn't want to play into Pin Vice (5/0, reanimate and close control mean that scalpel doesn't hit great options on her playbook, can't easily kill PV, and can't easily take the ball from her, drag her around and score like she wants to do). So having double captains should lean your opponent towards choosing Obby. 

Brewers - Tapper is almost certainly the better choice regardless, however some people may try esters if they see and think you will drop ballista. Either captain can play into esters comfortably. 

Hunters - Doesn't really change much, I think most competitive hunters will be choosing Skatha regardless?

As to the downside of 2 captains: I don't really see that as much of a downside. With the line ups you gave, you give up two very situational players for the extra choice in captain, even if the captain is a situational choice. I personally would argue that locus should be the 11th man there, with either salvo or vVelocity as the 10th. That said, I am really not a big fan of him and I think that may be well known by now. :)

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What it boils down to for me I guess is: When is picking Pin Vice the "correct" choice? Is there any guild where pin vice is the best choice into both captains?

Picking blindly before roll off makes the safer option in Ballista seem much more preferred to me. 

I guess I personally like pin vice into shark and fillet. But ballista feels not bad into either. And shark might often rather be a Corsair drop.  

Having pin vice for a bluff seems, as you kinda confirmed, not very effective. 

Not trying to be obnoxious, just playing the devils advocate for the sake of discussion.

(And yeah, im going back and forth on salvo/locus on who is the 11th player)

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I play Ballista pretty exclusively. He brings so much to the field that Pin Vice can't compete with for me. He's tanky, plays football well, does damage we'll, and has some of the best control in the game.

That said,  you might as well put PV in the 10 man lineup, since there's only really 7 other models that deserve a spot in there.

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Lately I have been experimenting with PV into Alchemists when I am recieving.  With high defense and Close control, PV is a good answer to Vitriol's kickoff.  I retrieve the ball with another model and pass to PV.  It becomes very difficult for Vitriol to pull her 1st turn goal antics(impossible with particularly good positioning), and a tooled up PV threatens to kill vitriol before she can activate.   

After turn 1, I usually long for Ballista.  His momentous inspiration for Ratchet/Hoist Blast earth is far superior to deletion's +1 damage, as it lets you work to control the match even when the opposition is out of melee threat.  However, if you're the kind of player who goes in the tank for 5-10 minutes on turn 1 to prevent Vitriol's antics(or mist's antics, to a lesser extent), PV may be a decent drop for you to try.

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It's risky, but a first activation Deadbolt shuts down a Vitriol or Mist turn 1 goal run pretty well.  If you want Balista for the rest of the game that might be the right play.

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The risky deadbolt does shut them down.  However, that's a 44% chance of failure(30% chance of failure with bonus time), and that is just a bit too much for me.  When I receive in the ballista squad my immediate response is to get the ball to colossus/velocity and further than 10 inches from my goal, or leave it on the ground in a place that vitriol/mist cannot reach it.  Ballista is a late activation to KD catalyst or some target of opportunity.  

 

I will say that I like the deadbolt for most other kickers.  Turn 1 Ballista makes shark cry the saltiest tears in the league.

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I played against Shark last night. Dead Bolt on turn 1 and Ballista and VVel played the beat down game and took out Shark and OSiren turn 2. I ended up 4&1 to 3.  His only points were on clock.  

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I have to admit the game wasn't much fun for my friend, though. Colossus kept knocking him down.  I also brought VVel and Compound.  VVel doesn't make my 10.  Only useful against Fish, Skaatha and B3 (maybe, never faced her).

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If they kick in a place where Ballista can get the vall, pass, and make a Bonus Timed Deadbolt, it's absolute money for shutting down Vitriol/Mist/Fillet.

I don't think VVel has any place in a competitive roster. Upping the TN by 1 against a 3 or 4 die kick isn't a very reliable way to stop a goal, and relying on a missed goal to do something cool doesn't exactly engender confidence. She could maybe do some cool stuff in Fly Keeper mode, but then why aren't you just taking regular Velocity?

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4 hours ago, MandalorynOranj said:

She could maybe do some cool stuff in Fly Keeper mode, but then why aren't you just taking regular Velocity?

Damage output.  OVel has very little.  VVel has 3 (4 with Tooled Up (5 with Deletion too)). You may not hit it all the time but it can be significant.  She beat up OSiren twice. In many ways she won me the game.  I only had her in Goal Keeper mode first turn. Back to 2 captain responses, PV is better with VVel but I didnt take her this time. And I usually don't take VVel at all. She may make the 4&1 game more likely but you are all but taking away the 3-0 game.  Of course, I also didn't take Hoist or Mother.  Mainspring's free pass saved a Fisherman goal for sure twice.

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For my money, given the OPD, especially choosing Captain/Mascot pre-game, I don't bother with list-chicken and just include Ballista and Mother. I then have the rest of my roster to "tech" against the opposing team. I don't have Locus, so I have the rest of my available players plus Harry to work with. It'll keep my opponent guessing. That's not to say that Pin Vice has no place (I happen to like her into Alchemists with a boat-load of Close Control and Reanimate players), but Ballista feels more versatile. ;)

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