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TehMik

Basic Cog Tactics - What To Do?

As a follow up to my previous thread (here, in which many of you kindly and helpfully passed along some very useful advice) I have some questions. Pure chance allowed me to pick up all of the Engineer models except Locus. I was able to get a game in against some Fish this weekend, and it went. Learned what some models did, learned that I probably should have picked Compound, and that Hoist is pretty excellent. I did have some things I wanted to bring up:

- What kind of tactics do you use to apply kick-off pressure when kicking off at the start of the game? Who kicks, why, etc? 

- What is Colossus' purpose, exactly? Keep the ball? Maybe it was because I was playing against oSiren, but it didn't matter who had the ball. Not saying I think the big man is bad, just saying I'm sure I'm the one who is using him wrong. He ended up being a snap-shot turret for some reason.

- If I want to bring in Harry, who gets dropped? Right now I kind of feel like Colossus, Velocity, Ratchet, and Hoist (plus captain and mascot) are a pretty excellent core. Yet Harry brings momentous damage and efficiency not inherent in the faction. Maybe Hoist goes? 

Any thoughts (even "GIT GUD!") are appreciated.

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12 minutes ago, TehMik said:

As a follow up to my previous thread (here, in which many of you kindly and helpfully passed along some very useful advice) I have some questions. Pure chance allowed me to pick up all of the Engineer models except Locus. I was able to get a game in against some Fish this weekend, and it went. Learned what some models did, learned that I probably should have picked Compound, and that Hoist is pretty excellent. I did have some things I wanted to bring up:

- What kind of tactics do you use to apply kick-off pressure when kicking off at the start of the game? Who kicks, why, etc? 

- What is Colossus' purpose, exactly? Keep the ball? Maybe it was because I was playing against oSiren, but it didn't matter who had the ball. Not saying I think the big man is bad, just saying I'm sure I'm the one who is using him wrong. He ended up being a snap-shot turret for some reason.

- If I want to bring in Harry, who gets dropped? Right now I kind of feel like Colossus, Velocity, Ratchet, and Hoist (plus captain and mascot) are a pretty excellent core. Yet Harry brings momentous damage and efficiency not inherent in the faction. Maybe Hoist goes? 

Any thoughts (even "GIT GUD!") are appreciated.

1. Depends on the captain and the matchup. With Ballista, you probably want hoist kicking as he threatens the ball best. Velocity can do it as well, but her threat is more linear and predictable, and she can be blocked off from charging in on the ball. With pin vice, you can still go with hoist if you plan on using pin vice in a support role early, however I think the pin vice kick is by far the strongest, as she puts a ton of pressure on the ball. Ideally, hoist burrows and charges in before pin vice activates to get momentum for rachet to overclock her, although that telegraphs your play a lot and you can certainly pull the trigger earlier with pin vice if you see a good goal opportunity (and especially if you have knee slider). 

2. Colossus sets up take outs, controls models and the scrum via pushes and KD. He also is a great mid to late game striker, as he is incredibly durable and as good of a striker as any other engineer model once he is in range. 

3. Velocity unfortunately. Harry allows for the much more reliable 2-2 game, while without him it can be harder to achieve that. This certainly isn't a 100% case - you don't NEED harry in every matchup. In fact vs. shark fish I don't often take him - either velocity or compound are usually better. 

So yeah, overall - git gud. Nah, I believe that engineers while a really strong team, have a pretty high skill floor (and ceiling) and thus there is a lot of difference between someone who is just learning the team compared to a seasoned player who has the reps in. Keep at it though, they are a super fun and rewarding team to play!

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Against a footballing team like Fish I'd kick with Ballista.  Extend that threat range for the momentous ranged KD.  Then if you sucker them into bringing the ball into Ballista's charge range he has a tackle on 1.  Of course you have to beware the easy counter attack  with 2" reach.  Often footballers have low tackles.  Deadbolt into Shark can put him in his place and keep him out of goal range.  I know Velocity is easy to see coming but against fighty teams I like her kicking off.  High def plus easy push-dodges makes it easy to surf to a goal if they can't touch her.  Of course, that's dependent on average dice luck.

My plan against Siren is Ratchet and Hoist.  Tool up Hoist then use Blast Earth 3 times for 8 damage.  It doesn't target her so no penalty.  When you bring Colossus against anyone his purpose is to reshape the field and set up takeouts for Ballista, PV or Hoist with KD and singled out.  If the scrum gets out of hand, charge a low def model and blow them up with Unexpected Arrival.  Particularly useful separating A&G or Siren and Kraken.  When you bring him against fish, either Corsair or Shark with Siren drop the ball behind his big base but within his 2" snap to range.  It makes it hard to get to on dodges.  Especially since he has 2" reach and easy KD.  And for goodness sake keep him on the edges until you need him to break up the scrum. He isn't made for duking it out against killers.  

I find it hard to drop for Harry.  All my guild members are excellent.  But if I were going to it would probably be Hoist or Velocity. I don't like my team without Ratchet.

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1 minute ago, Silversmith said:

Against a footballing team like Fish I'd kick with Ballista.  Extend that threat range for the momentous ranged KD.  Then if you sucker them into bringing the ball into Ballista's charge range he has a tackle on 1.  Of course you have to beware the easy counter attack  with 2" reach.  Often footballers have low tackles.  Deadbolt into Shark can put him in his place and keep him out of goal range.  I know Velocity is easy to see coming but against fighty teams I like her kicking off.  High def plus easy push-dodges makes it easy to surf to a goal if they can't touch her.  Of course, that's dependent on average dice luck.

My plan against Siren is Ratchet and Hoist.  Tool up Hoist then use Blast Earth 3 times for 8 damage.  It doesn't target her so no penalty.  When you bring Colossus against anyone his purpose is to reshape the field and set up takeouts for Ballista, PV or Hoist with KD and singled out.  If the scrum gets out of hand, charge a low def model and blow them up with Unexpected Arrival.  Particularly useful separating A&G or Siren and Kraken.  When you bring him against fish, either Corsair or Shark with Siren drop the ball behind his big base but within his 2" snap to range.  It makes it hard to get to on dodges.  Especially since he has 2" reach and easy KD.  And for goodness sake keep him on the edges until you need him to break up the scrum. He isn't made for duking it out against killers.  

I find it hard to drop for Harry.  All my guild members are excellent.  But if I were going to it would probably be Hoist or Velocity. I don't like my team without Ratchet.

Ballista already threats 16 inches with his deadbolt. Do you find you need more than that? Kicking he only threats 13" to the ball. A good fish player should be able to measure and stay outside of his charge threat with any model that would be particularly vulnerable to him.

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For me, the choice is often "Harry or Hoist", and, for the most part, it depends on how how crucial the 2" melee is.

I like Harry into Brewers, Butchers and other damage-dealers who have relatively low-DEF and are prime targets for Goad and are more likely to be forced to deal damage to him in order to achieve their take-out based paths to victory (that's not to say they can't score). Harry can also reliably chip in for damage or apply KD when called upon. I don't usually play Harry into Fish, who have a lot of ways to play around Harry's strengths (e.g. easy access to dodges).

However, in a game where the versatility granted by True Replication (by copying Burrow, Blast Earth, Singled Out, etc) appears more valuable than Harry's 2" melee, Hoist is my go-to. More often than not, I enjoy the survivability and versatility provided by Hoist.

With respect to Colossus, he is amongst my favourite models in Guild Ball full-stop. Close control (maybe enough said...)! He's also great at scooping up a loose ball (2" snap-to range) and he's incredibly resilient with Tough Hide and ARM2, especially when the model is already locked into melee with him (TAC 5 models can, at best, achieve 3 successes). Stoic often goes overlooked but can be clutch when maintaining the threat of a charge (esp. with Overclocked from Ratchet) or goal. Light footed means that rough ground and pesky forests will not slow Colossus (a surprisingly FAST model) from doing what he wants to do. Finally, his playbook. It's awesome. Singled Out on C1 is awesome! Applying Singled Out makes achieving those juicy C2/C3 results far, far more likely. 

For example, at TAC 5 (Colossus' base TAC) vs. DEF 4+/ARM 1, the chance of scoring 2 successes is 50%. Not the best. Pushing it up to TAC 7, the odds jump to 77%. Much better! Now getting that KD or Tackle is much more reliable.

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On 6/26/2017 at 8:36 AM, TehMik said:

As a follow up to my previous thread (here, in which many of you kindly and helpfully passed along some very useful advice) I have some questions. Pure chance allowed me to pick up all of the Engineer models except Locus. I was able to get a game in against some Fish this weekend, and it went. Learned what some models did, learned that I probably should have picked Compound, and that Hoist is pretty excellent. I did have some things I wanted to bring up:

- What kind of tactics do you use to apply kick-off pressure when kicking off at the start of the game? Who kicks, why, etc? 

- What is Colossus' purpose, exactly? Keep the ball? Maybe it was because I was playing against oSiren, but it didn't matter who had the ball. Not saying I think the big man is bad, just saying I'm sure I'm the one who is using him wrong. He ended up being a snap-shot turret for some reason.

- If I want to bring in Harry, who gets dropped? Right now I kind of feel like Colossus, Velocity, Ratchet, and Hoist (plus captain and mascot) are a pretty excellent core. Yet Harry brings momentous damage and efficiency not inherent in the faction. Maybe Hoist goes? 

Any thoughts (even "GIT GUD!") are appreciated.

I kick with Velocity just to threat a counter goal if they get to close before their own attempt. She is also unlikely to die to anyone but a diehard beater team unless they throw all their activations at her.

Colossus is there to break up the scrum with unexpected arrival or seting up a kill on a model with singled out and KD. He is great at ball retrieval late game also with Long Legs and 6/8 move.

I personally only ever bring Harry with Pin vice. Ballista doesn't get much value out of him and his 2-2 game is not nearly as strong as his 3-0 pressure compared to pin vice who can deletion herself to, well, delete a player at will.

 

I would not worry about union players at all until you feel comfortable with your in guild roster. Harry will feel his best when you can be the most efficient with your players without him. Engineers are all about efficiency after all. Every Cog has its place! Except locus. He's just Pin vice's weird experiment.

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7 hours ago, blueboyzcaptain said:

I kick with Velocity just to threat a counter goal if they get to close before their own attempt. She is also unlikely to die to anyone but a diehard beater team unless they throw all their activations ulvat her.

Colossus is there to break up the scrum with unexpected arrival or seting up a kill on a model with singled out and KD. He is great at ball retrieval late game also with Long Legs and 6/8 move.

I personally only ever bring Harry with Pin vice. Ballista doesn't get much value out of him and his 2-2 game is not nearly as strong as his 3-0 pressure compared to pin vice who can deletion herself to, well, delete a player at will.

 

I would not worry about union players at all until you feel comfortable with your in guild roster. Harry will feel his best when you can be the most efficient with your players without him. Engineers are all about efficiency after all. Every Cog has its place! Except locus. He's just Pin vice's weird experiment.

I have to strongly disagree on that. Ballista has an amazing playbook and can put out a ton of damage. Not as much as a tooled up, deleted, overclocked pin vice, but then again he is not nearly as vulnerable to counter attacks as she is. He also sets himself up nicely with deadbolt. Harry is a huge part of that, as he contributes to the 2-2 game and ballista and team benefit from the passing aura as well (obviously not as much as pin vice on legendary, but other than that more or less the same). In my last probably 15 or so tournament games with ballista, every game I have won has been 2-2. 

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