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malladin.ben

State of the game?

53 posts in this topic

The biggest problem I have with rotation, isn't the cost involved, it's the time investment. As Guild Ball is as much about the hobby as it is about the game (you have to paint the players before you can go to tournaments), rotating out players you've spent time painting and getting to look good is really frustrating. What's the point in painting up a team if half of them are going to be invalidated at some point in the near future? With X-wing this isn't so bad (it's still not great) as you don't have to put the work into painting the models.

I really don't want GB going to a pre-painted system as I enjoy the hobby side.

1 minute ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

A lot of local players round here play in clubs rather than stores and buy online. The game is as popular as it has ever been.

The problem isn't the popularity of the game, it's the stock levels of FLGS. If

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1 hour ago, ningu said:

The biggest problem I have with rotation, isn't the cost involved, it's the time investment. As Guild Ball is as much about the hobby as it is about the game (you have to paint the players before you can go to tournaments), rotating out players you've spent time painting and getting to look good is really frustrating. What's the point in painting up a team if half of them are going to be invalidated at some point in the near future? With X-wing this isn't so bad (it's still not great) as you don't have to put the work into painting the models.

I really don't want GB going to a pre-painted system as I enjoy the hobby side.

The problem isn't the popularity of the game, it's the stock levels of FLGS. If

Most miniature games not made by GW face the same problem. As such the new starters are a very good development, allowing a LGS to just stock them and do the rest on back order.

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I'm a recent new player. Started about 6 weeks ago. My m8 and I started together and one thing I've noticed is one of the local stores did stock some models but has now for a few ranges of games. Malifaux infinity and gb only ordering in things people need. While it's not a bad thing it does limit some of the community building sometimes

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GB is in a fair state, however due to the nature of the game it has its own set of issues. 

It lacks any list building type aspects along with the lack of action by Steamforged to address certain balance issues has resulted, IMO, in a bit of a stale state of the game.  Without list building the amount of forum talk that is around is generally rather small.  And with the current state of the game dominated by obviously broken models like Midas, AnG, Vitriol, Harry etc, there isn't much to talk about.  SF needs to be much more proactive about the continual balancing of the game in order to help keep things fresh IMO.  Would go along ways to keeping the game in a healthy state.

I also feel like, in my area specifically, that the game is moving more towards a side game for most people.   People enjoy it but there are so many other good games out there these days that very few people are 'maining' Guild ball.

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If I were SFG?

Fix the weak models nobody takes: I would sort out the weak models so people want to buy them (Fangtooth - god his Heroic is sooooo baaaaddd and he's 1/3...eurgh) which will also have a net effect of mixing up the meta a bit as people adjust to more varied team choices.  

Fix the auto-include models everyone takes: Everyone takes Harry, Meathook, Kat1 - these models are just too good for their situational cost slot. Having auto-includes makes the game boring - every team looks the same. Tweak these down a bit to good but not auto-include and the game will be fresh once more.

Sort out their release windows: I don't like the staggering of the Farmers. It will make them weird to play for 1-2 months, won't have the big impact on the meta they could have and it's just annoying (look at Hunters and their 1 year between releases...eurgh).

Look at changing Plots into something else: Plots are at the moment a bit stupid - the random draw meaning you can get 3 of the best cards (getting Knee Slider and Who Are You is back breaking for opponent) at top play is just bad design. I would increase the number of plots but turn it into draft - I pick, you pick etc. That way if you pick Knee Slider, I know I can get Who Are You etc. Alternative is to turn these into some sort of list building collectible - BUT you are going to potentially piss people off if the game devolves into who has the best stuff. I favour releasing 20 Plot Cards and creating a draft system. You'll still have tiers of cards, but a) one guy doesn't get all the tier 1 stuff, b ) there is a wider selection so it could be tailored more to factions (e.g. something stabby for take out teams, etc). You could even release 1-2 Guild Specific plots like in Big League (but not as broken as some of those!) that people could collect. You could churn the Plot Cards much more frequently than every season - that will mix things up on the pitch every say 6 months. Keep it fresh. If we are stuck with Knee Slider for another year and half until Season 4 I think I might scream.

Release alt-sculpts/terrain packs etc

Release prize kits tailored to larger events or randomise what's in the prize kits. Every kit having a Mist is going to get a little old soon. Sure you'll have the a-holes that ebay stuff but in the main you'll offer random collectibles that will make events interesting.

Sort out the OPD - I'm not sure the captains pick change has helped the game at all. Now people (as expected) are dropping certain captains (sBrisket) because that kick/receive roll is huge. People like creating kick off/receive strategies. I would just push the captain/mascot pick to immediately after the roll off. Either simultaneous or consecutive choice - I don't know without play testing which is busted. The kicker being able to pick their captain based on knowing they are kicking and what the opponent receiver is doing sounds powerful - is it as powerful as receiving the ball? Don't know. Also increase the squad size. It's not actually helping the game because the idea of forcing meaningful choices on Guilds penalizes adaptability - which makes teams more samey (and affects different Guilds differently - Alchs don't care, Masons are sad). Just let people take their whole guild - see what happens - you might start seeing more Fangtooths and Granites.

Release more dual guild models - Compound is great, and the fact he works for 2 guilds adds interesting flavour to both. I want to see a Butcher/Mortician player or a Mason/Blacksmith player etc. This will spark people into buying those one-off models and mix up metas.

If I were SFG. Which is why I don't run games companies probably...

 

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I've been playing wargames longer than I care to remember, and was drawn to GB because of the limited number of miniatures available for a particular guild. It maybe because I was scarred by GW 40k where what you bought and painted was obsolete before you new it, not to mention Codex's, main rule books etc.

I would rather see a steady growth in guilds, players etc. The production of new designs and producing the miniatures is a complex process, the tooling alone on a machine whether that is metal or plastic can be an expensive process. You also have to consider that if SF are in the process of producing plastic miniatures all across the guilds (if I am correct) I don't think they are in a bad place at this moment in time.

It may be difficult to keep everyone happy in any community, but small well considered growth maybe a sensible financial way to expand the business!

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Is the commercial state of the game an actual concern of the company? I only even became aware of this game a couple of months ago, and just picked up the Kick Off starter pack... so forgive my ignorance/innocence in all things guild ball.

I perceive a longevity can be sustained for this game with the endless variety of guilds that could be introduced to it. I am not a miniatures painter (yet) and I don't particularly want to fiddle around with having to construct the models. The Kick Off pack was much less daunting for someone like myself to get into a miniatures game. I've mentioned before that I may be outside of the target demographic at 50+ years of age... but I believe there is a larger market to be had outside of the gamer community that is strong at the local gaming shops around the globe.

I just think that a local area gamers...we generally aren't very good at spreading the word... and generally speaking I don't think gaming companies are very good at marketing their product.

I like that this forum is full of passionate players that want the game to not just survive ... but thrive... and generate excitement. 

Like I said, I'm new...but here are a couple of thoughts I'll throw in for what they are worth.

1. Kick Off starter sets of all guild varieties... not just Brewer's vs Mason's.

2. Rotation has been brought up as a way to keep seasoned vets buying. I wouldn't want to see entire teams rotated out... perhaps rotation could come in the form of shorter term "injury" lists... where a couple of players from each guild were out recovering for a few months... unable to be used in tournament play for the first, or last half, of the season. During those times perhaps new guild members are introduced to the game as replacements. That way the models that I bought initially still have a shelf life for the stores and the players ... because they will rotate back in. (Even would lend itself to the lore of the Mob Football background)

3. Merchandising.... beyond the game itself... numerous possibilities for Steamforged to merchandise a whole line of branded, guild specific things like dice, measuring tools, game mats. (Obviously some of this exists... so much more could.) Cups, mugs, t-shirts, etc.

4. Exposing the game beyond the local game shop. Big topic this one... I would think, just like other games, there are far more people who want to play at the kitchen table than at the local game shop. Hell, my wife enjoyed the game this week, and she's about the furthest thing from a gamer you can get. How does a company reach that market? I don't think anyone has figured that out yet. 

Despite the fact that certain regions have been playing for a while now... this game is in it's infancy world wide. Will some of the original people move on... well most likely...it usually happens. Will they come back... some will... perhaps when another guild that sort of catches their fancy is released... or they have new buddies that start to play in the future. I believe, as long as the company doesn't panic and start releasing product that is rushed and unbalanced, a slow steady growth can be maintained.

I've rambled on far too long... perhaps taken this in too many directions. 

Cheers.

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SFG will do their part to grow the game, and we'll all praise/bash those choices here.  Altering gameplay for the sole purpose of increasing sales (as opposed to altering gameplay in order to create a better play experience, which will then hopefully generate more sales)  seems dangerous to me, though.  It's hard to accept for some, but much of the growth of the game depends on us.  I love a game at home as much as anyone, but I still try to get out to my local FLGS and play, because every time I do, someone stops by and asks about it.  Every time.  I'll then take a break from the game and tell them more about the game, in-store events, and how to connect with local players (we use a private FB group).  I'm working on creating opportunities to play in public elsewhere, as well, because 1) it's fun to play in new places and 2) it gives even more people the chance to be exposed to the game.  SFG has given the game some amazing tools to make itself known - Kick Off! being one on the best, but also incorporating sportsball into the core design of the game.  If we as players do not use these tools, or if we present negativity as being a core component of the local playgroup, people will stay away, and the longevity of the game will be affected.

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Seeing as they prbly arent going to keep coming out with a "new player" for each team indefinitely. At least coming out with alternate models(with possibly alternate card art) for a player of each team would be nice, that way you always have something to look forward to for the teams that you main/love. 

Another thing I was talking about with the owner of the store I go to is pre-order bonuses. Video games companies already do this and it really helps stores know how much stock they generally need to get. I think table top games(like guild ball) can do the same thing. It doesnt have to be anything big but maybe something like preorder rulebooks with alternate art on the cover. Or if you preorder 6 man box set it will come with a faction specific Chibi Captain card and/or pin. The more people preorder the more stores will be willing to actually order the stock as opposed to being to afraid of blindly ordering on account not enough people will want it.

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Pre-orders are literally the cancer of the video game industry. People pre-order and then find a game is full of bugs and terrible. Worse, they give exclusive content to pre-order people which unbalances the game or is insulting to Day 1 players who pay the same price. It is the WORST thing about the VG industry and people should NOT pre-order.

I don't think SFG should steer the ship too violently, and we all need to accept that guilds might be getting close to saturation point such that existing guilds are 'closed'. People need to be encouraged to try new teams rather than just waiting for more models for their existing team.

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1 hour ago, EpicChris said:

Pre-orders are literally the cancer of the video game industry. People pre-order and then find a game is full of bugs and terrible. Worse, they give exclusive content to pre-order people which unbalances the game or is insulting to Day 1 players who pay the same price. It is the WORST thing about the VG industry and people should NOT pre-order.

I don't think SFG should steer the ship too violently, and we all need to accept that guilds might be getting close to saturation point such that existing guilds are 'closed'. People need to be encouraged to try new teams rather than just waiting for more models for their existing team.

Yes, the Guilds may be getting a little full. Some more Vets or cross Guild players may be the way forward for the moment while the new Guilds catch up...

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3 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Pre-orders are literally the cancer of the video game industry. People pre-order and then find a game is full of bugs and terrible. Worse, they give exclusive content to pre-order people which unbalances the game or is insulting to Day 1 players who pay the same price. It is the WORST thing about the VG industry and people should NOT pre-order.

I don't think SFG should steer the ship too violently, and we all need to accept that guilds might be getting close to saturation point such that existing guilds are 'closed'. People need to be encouraged to try new teams rather than just waiting for more models for their existing team.

If a game is full of bugs and terrible at launch your going to find that out if you buy it the day of release anyway, preordering it will not affect that.

While I agree with you that getting a preorder bonus that gives someone an edge(extra stats, exclusive characters) is def. a problem and by no means beneficial for any game. Preorders that provide cosmetic content (avatar items/outfits, shiny things) I dont believe is a problem. You say its insulting to someone who buys the game day one and does not get said bonus, well you generally have 6 months or more to preorder so in that case you have no one to blame but yourself for not choosing to preorder it if you wanted said content. 

Regardless the examples I cited were exclusively cosmetic (art, Chibi Pins, Chibi cards) and would by no means affect the state of the game.

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11 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

Most miniature games not made by GW face the same problem. As such the new starters are a very good development, allowing a LGS to just stock them and do the rest on back order.

This is pretty much what my shop does lately. New release single model boxes they get a few in stock, but anything older than this month's releases I'd have to order. 

Thing is, even the locals with all the teams have pretty much caught up now, so demand will die. Thankfully, it's still just as easy to get a game as it ever was. 

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8 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

This is pretty much what my shop does lately. New release single model boxes they get a few in stock, but anything older than this month's releases I'd have to order. 

Thing is, even the locals with all the teams have pretty much caught up now, so demand will die. Thankfully, it's still just as easy to get a game as it ever was. 

Get new players into the game? One of the big strengths of Guild Ball is the fact that the set up costs are relatively low compared to most other miniature games. 

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@Ruffy the reason players buy everything to get all the upgrade cards is because you have to have the real card for competitive events. I know... Cash grab. :P

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Interesting topic.
 

It's funny how fast people move away from a game after a company stops providing incentive to run tournaments.

 

Keep it small and balanced. Don't jump the shark with some nonsense change.

 

Bring back sanctioned tournaments and you'll see that the community will continue to grow. There is a lot of really good games out there right now making it hard to decide what to play. Having the best prize support has been a wonderful boon for the game. The loss of this has been felt the world over.

 

I would recommend upping the number to 32 players or limiting it to once per store every 4 months etc.

 

THIS is the reason the game has grown. I mean it really depends what the company wants to do. If they want to grow though, prize support = growth.

 

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For a smaller meta like ours, the organized play pack prizes have been a boon, getting people interested to come to tournaments, because of the old rule where you needed 16 players minimum to get sanctioned prizes.  We never had a tournament more than 8 people at once, so we had zero chance of ever getting sanctioned, and then you get the chicken and egg problem. 

I like the prize pack method where pundits and stores can pay for the pack, as long as they limit the stores/supplies to prevent abuse, they can keep this new method and add some cool prizes into the kit.  This way, both bigger and smaller communities win.

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This is still a relatively young game, and GenCon is right around the corner with 2 new factions, so there will be a bump in general interest in the game.  This is a smaller game with only 6 models on the table and a typical faction only has 12 models, so I think we have to take that into account when we talk about the game.   I agree that Star Wars and GW are still the gold standard, but there are a lot of smaller games that are creating a nice niche for themselves.  At my home store, my buddy and I started playing about a year and a half ago, and it was just the two of us.  Today we are running a Big League and we have 12 players in, so I am seeing growth in our meta.  The mechanics are solid, the premise of the game is very straight forward (score 12 and win), so I think it will continue to be relevant.   

All that said, I think STF has some cool things that they are working on, which should continue to build interest in the game.  Even through Season 4 is not due out until next year, I think there will be some mid-term releases which will add excitement for the game. 

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The problem with my local meta is that SF gathered all of my mates and now has them as play testers.:o

I hardly get a game these days. But I will be back playing again. And so will they when the year is out. 

The loss of prize support, (We always had lots of people round here so the 16 for a sanctioned event was not a problem.) and the pause in releases has also had an effect. There are several people in my local club that have taken to Dark Souls like ducks to water. They were the other people I was playing. But they are hobby butterflies. (One guy said he didn't want to have to think too much on his gaming nights! Lazy sod!)

To 'get good' you need to play people who are better than you and do it regularly. 

The 'OP' players are omnipresent when I play and the likes of Fangtooth do need some help. For a big guy he is almost invisible. I am not convinced that the game needs many tweaks.

 I think the Guild Ball is a good game and will survive.

Bill

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It also depends on what your are wanting Guild Ball's state to be.

As @Isante said, GB doesn't seem to be a game that most people "main." Doesn't mean those people don't exist. I "main game" this game, but I feel I am not part of the majority. This game just seems to have certain aspects about it that don't sate us fringe-gamers appetites enough to be our exclusive game.

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On 6/26/2017 at 0:01 PM, Malritch said:

Is the commercial state of the game an actual concern of the company? I only even became aware of this game a couple of months ago, and just picked up the Kick Off starter pack... so forgive my ignorance/innocence in all things guild ball.

I perceive a longevity can be sustained for this game with the endless variety of guilds that could be introduced to it. I am not a miniatures painter (yet) and I don't particularly want to fiddle around with having to construct the models. The Kick Off pack was much less daunting for someone like myself to get into a miniatures game. I've mentioned before that I may be outside of the target demographic at 50+ years of age... but I believe there is a larger market to be had outside of the gamer community that is strong at the local gaming shops around the globe.

I just think that a local area gamers...we generally aren't very good at spreading the word... and generally speaking I don't think gaming companies are very good at marketing their product.

I like that this forum is full of passionate players that want the game to not just survive ... but thrive... and generate excitement. 

Like I said, I'm new...but here are a couple of thoughts I'll throw in for what they are worth.

1. Kick Off starter sets of all guild varieties... not just Brewer's vs Mason's.

2. Rotation has been brought up as a way to keep seasoned vets buying. I wouldn't want to see entire teams rotated out... perhaps rotation could come in the form of shorter term "injury" lists... where a couple of players from each guild were out recovering for a few months... unable to be used in tournament play for the first, or last half, of the season. During those times perhaps new guild members are introduced to the game as replacements. That way the models that I bought initially still have a shelf life for the stores and the players ... because they will rotate back in. (Even would lend itself to the lore of the Mob Football background)

3. Merchandising.... beyond the game itself... numerous possibilities for Steamforged to merchandise a whole line of branded, guild specific things like dice, measuring tools, game mats. (Obviously some of this exists... so much more could.) Cups, mugs, t-shirts, etc.

4. Exposing the game beyond the local game shop. Big topic this one... I would think, just like other games, there are far more people who want to play at the kitchen table than at the local game shop. Hell, my wife enjoyed the game this week, and she's about the furthest thing from a gamer you can get. How does a company reach that market? I don't think anyone has figured that out yet. 

Despite the fact that certain regions have been playing for a while now... this game is in it's infancy world wide. Will some of the original people move on... well most likely...it usually happens. Will they come back... some will... perhaps when another guild that sort of catches their fancy is released... or they have new buddies that start to play in the future. I believe, as long as the company doesn't panic and start releasing product that is rushed and unbalanced, a slow steady growth can be maintained.

I've rambled on far too long... perhaps taken this in too many directions. 

Cheers.

I like the idea off an  injured list. Warmahordes does something called an active duty list, where if the player chooses to only use a warcaster or warlock from the list they get some sort of bonus during the tournament. It helps boost the non tier 1 casters during competitibe play. If we had an injured list, you get a bonus for not using certain models. Ie. Dont take vitriol in your starting 10, get an extra influence to allocate during each game. Something along those lines.

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8 hours ago, Refused8778 said:

I like the idea off an  injured list. Warmahordes does something called an active duty list, where if the player chooses to only use a warcaster or warlock from the list they get some sort of bonus during the tournament. It helps boost the non tier 1 casters during competitibe play. If we had an injured list, you get a bonus for not using certain models. Ie. Dont take vitriol in your starting 10, get an extra influence to allocate during each game. Something along those lines.

That is an interesting twist for tournament play.

 

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