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Poetica

MO-Ball Podcast Episode 4

36 posts in this topic

MO-Ball podcast episode 4 - Killing the ball is killing me!

Brandon and Jake are joined by Dorian and Melvin on a stormy episode of MO-Ball to talk about killing the ball.

https://mo-ball.net/

https://www.patreon.com/moball

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mo-ball-podcast/id1224085175?mt=2

https://www.facebook.com/moball.net

 

Be sure to join us on Patreon for our Monthly Model Giveaway. This month is LE RAGE!

 

 

 

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TehMik likes this

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Love you guys! Great Topic, I have the same opinion about Killing the ball!

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14 minutes ago, Kueller said:

Love you guys! Great Topic, I have the same opinion about Killing the ball!

Killing the ball is for people who don't want to have fun

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Just now, BREW BALLS said:

Killing the ball is for people who don't want to have fun

Never a Truer Statement has been made!

BREW BALLS likes this

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I agree that killing the ball sucks.

I think people have been drawn to killing the ball because of goal plays like A&G where there is no interaction with the other player. I hope that the meta goes more to a combined arms way of playing where people who don't want to go for a 3-0 can compete with goal scoring teams without killing the ball. 

Great podcast!

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8 minutes ago, Ironprice said:

I agree that killing the ball sucks.

I think people have been drawn to killing the ball because of goal plays like A&G where there is no interaction with the other player. I hope that the meta goes more to a combined arms way of playing where people who don't want to go for a 3-0 can compete with goal scoring teams without killing the ball. 

Great podcast!

I agree completely

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I think the cast is a little unfair on ball killing, but it's always nice to hear differing opinions. I had pure hype pumping through my veins when my demo game i figured out how to get a turn 1 goal with Friday, that sold me on the game and Fish in particular; so I understand the feeling of losing the spirit of the game. 

But I also really enjoy being challenged when playing as fish to figure out how I can retrieve it. Without ball killing to some degree the fish would just auto roll over everything, so it's something of a necessary evil. 

Another good listen though guys, keep it up!

Slothrop and BREW BALLS like this

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Difference of opinion I suppose but I don't think ball killing is the "meta". Ball killing is the answer to the meta.  The meta is fish and alchs running amok with tools for scoring that other teams don't have access to. It's not someone trying to be unfair or unsportsmanlike but if their guild doesn't have models that can race someone to a 3-0 win, they have to try and slow the game down to keep up on points from kills. The ball and scoring is certainly a key component of the game like you said, but not every guild has the tools to make the most of that side of the game. Killing is just a big part of the game whether or not you think its the fun part, otherwise it wouldn't also award points.  You shouldn't be looking to make rules to punish people for killing the ball when their entire guild is designed to get kills and not goals. If anything you should be making rules for new guild members to fill the gaps in those areas (although that is sort of against the steamforged design philosophy) or making goal scoring wins a bit slower (goals at 3 points?). Steamforged designed goal teams, killing teams, and mixed teams. The episode comes off a bit whiny about people playing guilds that were designed around killing rather than scoring goals. Those people are also trying to enjoy the game and remain competitive with the models and guilds that they enjoy. It's not their fault their team was given a different win condition by design.

kegslayer13, Isante, tehlon and 2 others like this

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The dominance of scoring teams, in particular Alchemists, seems to me to necessitate ball-killing if you're not playing one of those teams. So I guess... is it better if everybody just played Alchemists? Or is it better if people played what they wanted, and employed strategies "for people who don't want to have fun"? Or is it better if people just lost to Alchemists over and over? I like door #2, if I have to choose a door. And unless somebody is going to try to tell me that every team is as good at football or a mixed plan as Alchemists, then I think I have to choose a door. 

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3 minutes ago, Slothrop said:

The dominance of scoring teams, in particular Alchemists, seems to me to necessitate ball-killing if you're not playing one of those teams. So I guess... is it better if everybody just played Alchemists? Or is it better if people played what they wanted, and employed strategies "for people who don't want to have fun"? Or is it better if people just lost to Alchemists over and over? I like door #2, if I have to choose a door. And unless somebody is going to try to tell me that every team is as good at football or a mixed plan as Alchemists, then I think I have to choose a door. 

Only if by every team, you mean engineers ;)
 

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37 minutes ago, Bisounours said:

Difference of opinion I suppose but I don't think ball killing is the "meta". Ball killing is the answer to the meta.  The meta is fish and alchs running amok with tools for scoring that other teams don't have access to. It's not someone trying to be unfair or unsportsmanlike but if their guild doesn't have models that can race someone to a 3-0 win, they have to try and slow the game down to keep up on points from kills. The ball and scoring is certainly a key component of the game like you said, but not every guild has the tools to make the most of that side of the game. Killing is just a big part of the game whether or not you think its the fun part, otherwise it wouldn't also award points.  You shouldn't be looking to make rules to punish people for killing the ball when their entire guild is designed to get kills and not goals. If anything you should be making rules for new guild members to fill the gaps in those areas (although that is sort of against the steamforged design philosophy) or making goal scoring wins a bit slower (goals at 3 points?). Steamforged designed goal teams, killing teams, and mixed teams. The episode comes off a bit whiny about people playing guilds that were designed around killing rather than scoring goals. Those people are also trying to enjoy the game and remain competitive with the models and guilds that they enjoy. It's not their fault their team was given a different win condition by design.

We never said unfair or unsportsman like and we're not whining we're looking at the changes in the game how we see it me personally I don't think there should be a rule 

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6 minutes ago, BREW BALLS said:

We never said unfair or unsportsman like and we're not whining

 

5 hours ago, BREW BALLS said:

Killing the ball is for people who don't want to have fun

 

:huh:

dtjunkie19, TheCurkov, JS and 1 other like this

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Crap didn't realize I have to put I'm just joking or lol like I'm a 17 year old girl after everything I type. Look I get why to kill the ball I really do if that's your thing being all about the wins and staring at the trophy rack cool. The cast to me has always been about my thoughts on stuff I even say in the cast that sometimes you have to do it.

 

But when your main objective is kill asap and wait until the end I don't understand that mentality if that's how you do it have at it.

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1 minute ago, BREW BALLS said:

Crap didn't realize I have to put I'm just joking or lol like I'm a 17 year old girl after everything I type. Look I get why to kill the ball I really do if that's your thing being all about the wins and staring at the trophy rack cool. The cast to me has always been about my thoughts on stuff I even say in the cast that sometimes you have to do it.

 

But when your main objective is kill asap and wait until the end I don't understand that mentality if that's how you do it have at it.

You don't understand how someone playing a team that leans heavily towards the fighting end of the  goal-take out spectrum of the game wouldn't want to kill the ball in order to slow down the game so that they can execute their game plan? If 2-2 is the ideal win condition for teams, and we see teams, such as shark fish that aim for 3-0, shouldn't there also be teams that aim for 6-0 or 4-1? If so, is killing the ball not only logical but within the "spirit of the game" for those teams?

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5 minutes ago, dtjunkie19 said:

You don't understand how someone playing a team that leans heavily towards the fighting end of the  goal-take out spectrum of the game wouldn't want to kill the ball in order to slow down the game so that they can execute their game plan? If 2-2 is the ideal win condition for teams, and we see teams, such as shark fish that aim for 3-0, shouldn't there also be teams that aim for 6-0 or 4-1? If so, is killing the ball not only logical but within the "spirit of the game" for those teams?

If this game was designed for takeouts only why is there a kick stat? Furthermore I have always played teams that can fight, takeouts have never been my main agenda and I win the majority of my games and I don't kill the ball.

 

When we say kill the ball we are talking the extreme end of it not "I'm bringing specific players to hold on to it until I'm ready for a goal" we do that but we don't just kick it in a corner and say ...what ball do you get what I mean? When we're recording we are talking how we always do in front of a Mic are we bad at explaining alot of things yes we're working on it doing this isn't easy.

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50 minutes ago, BREW BALLS said:

We never said unfair or unsportsman like and we're not whining we're looking at the changes in the game how we see it me personally I don't think there should be a rule 

I would think that the phrase "killing the spirit of the game" would suggest that someone is being unsportsmanlike or unfair. The first fifteen minutes just really came off as a a bit of complaining. There was A LOT of "killing the spirit of the game", "sucks", and talking about how you could change things so you didn't have to deal with people killing the ball.  I suppose maybe you guys just needed to vent about something that frustrated you, but it just didn't come off as something that benefited the audience.  After that it got a bit more constructive and even answered some of your own "why would you kill the ball?" questions when talking about farmers and how they can't play the all out goal game and need to find the right opportunity to score while beating people up.

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Jake was talking about a rule yeah but Dorian and I  both said that doesn't make sense. Slowing the pace is important to non fish alchemist teams what we've been seeing in our area in the Midwest are extreme examples of it

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1 minute ago, BREW BALLS said:

If this game was designed for takeouts only why is there a kick stat? Furthermore I have always played teams that can fight, takeouts have never been my main agenda and I win the majority of my games and I don't kill the ball.

 

When we say kill the ball we are talking the extreme end of it not "I'm bringing specific players to hold on to it until I'm ready for a goal" we do that but we don't just kick it in a corner and say ...what ball do you get what I mean? When we're recording we are talking how we always do in front of a Mic are we bad at explaining alot of things yes we're working on it doing this isn't easy.

He didn't say that the GAME was designed for getting only take outs but that certain GUILDS were designed with the idea that they would score more takeouts than goals. Not all kickstats were created equal with the specific intent of balancing models to certain types of play. Steamforged has explicitly said this many times in interviews.

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1 minute ago, Bisounours said:

He didn't say that the GAME was designed for getting only take outs but that certain GUILDS were designed with the idea that they would score more takeouts than goals. Not all kickstats were created equal with the specific intent of balancing models to certain types of play. Steamforged has explicitly said this many times in interviews.

I must have read something wrong. In all honesty until this podcast I never messed with the forums really I still have a hard time getting where people are coming from. 

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20 minutes ago, BREW BALLS said:

If this game was designed for takeouts only why is there a kick stat? Furthermore I have always played teams that can fight, takeouts have never been my main agenda and I win the majority of my games and I don't kill the ball.

 

When we say kill the ball we are talking the extreme end of it not "I'm bringing specific players to hold on to it until I'm ready for a goal" we do that but we don't just kick it in a corner and say ...what ball do you get what I mean? When we're recording we are talking how we always do in front of a Mic are we bad at explaining alot of things yes we're working on it doing this isn't easy.

Because there are teams in the game that aren't designed for takeouts only? That seems like a pretty silly question to ask. The next point seems irrelevant, honestly. I also have and do play teams that can fight, and I do quite well competitively and I don't kill the ball often. At the Spring fling I went 2-2 in every game I won and scored the most goals of any other player on the day. However, there are certainly times when I do kill the ball for a significant amount of time (the several turns that you guys mentioned on the cast). Other top competitive players, a great example being Jordan, often play a much more denial focused game than I do, and frequently kill the ball for most of the game, assuming that is the optimal strategy given the matchup/situation. Is his style of play any less valid than mine or yours? 

Then the title of your episode, and a good portion of the beginning and around the 34 minute mark are misleading. If you are only referring to the most extreme possible case of ball killing in which a player has zero intention to ever score a goal, no matter what, then you should be more explicit in stating that. However, I don't believe that you argued against that point, but rather you made arguments against people who kill the ball until they can end the game (which sounds like a 4-1 strategy, with 6-0 as a backup if a goal is not possible). 

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19 minutes ago, dtjunkie19 said:

Because there are teams in the game that aren't designed for takeouts only? That seems like a pretty silly question to ask. The next point seems irrelevant, honestly. I also have and do play teams that can fight, and I do quite well competitively and I don't kill the ball often. At the Spring fling I went 2-2 in every game I won and scored the most goals of any other player on the day. However, there are certainly times when I do kill the ball for a significant amount of time (the several turns that you guys mentioned on the cast). Other top competitive players, a great example being Jordan, often play a much more denial focused game than I do, and frequently kill the ball for most of the game, assuming that is the optimal strategy given the matchup/situation. Is his style of play any less valid than mine or yours? 

Then the title of your episode, and a good portion of the beginning and around the 34 minute mark are misleading. If you are only referring to the most extreme possible case of ball killing in which a player has zero intention to ever score a goal, no matter what, then you should be more explicit in stating that. However, I don't believe that you argued against that point, but rather you made arguments against people who kill the ball until they can end the game (which sounds like a 4-1 strategy, with 6-0 as a backup if a goal is not possible). 

The entire episode is based around, and I say multiple times, killing the ball is a thing whether we like it or not. It is a strategy that's beneficial, yes. I also say I would 100% kill the ball in a competitive game because it is very good right now.

to say some teams are only designed to kill is just wrong. Every team has a striker. Saying a team works best to only kill is more accurate.

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37 minutes ago, Poetica said:

The entire episode is based around, and I say multiple times, killing the ball is a thing whether we like it or not. It is a strategy that's beneficial, yes. I also say I would 100% kill the ball in a competitive game because it is very good right now.

to say some teams are only designed to kill is just wrong. Every team has a striker. Saying a team works best to only kill is more accurate.

I was going to post a separate post about the episode as a whole, but I got sidetracked responding to posts.  I actually really enjoyed the majority of the discussion on ball killing. Specifically, I believe your discussion of how to kill the ball, how to retrieve a killed ball, and how the meta may shift towards mixed 2-2 teams were all great. Where I think you guys are receiving criticism is on the tone of the discussion, which seemed to dismiss ball killing strategies as being an invalid way to play the game. You may not have intended that to be the takeway point, however it seems to be the way it was perceived by some of your listeners (myself included). I have no ill will towards you guys, I enjoy the podcast overall even when I may disagree with specific viewpoints, and I hope that my criticism doesn't come off too harshly. That said, by nature of putting your opinions out to the public you are contributing to the guild ball community viewpoint to some degree and it is important to respond to feedback in a manner that is conscientious of that fact.


Since you quoted me specifically, I will point out that I never said such a statement. I said the following:

"You don't understand how someone playing a team that leans heavily towards the fighting end of the  goal-take out spectrum of the game wouldn't want to kill the ball in order to slow down the game so that they can execute their game plan? If 2-2 is the ideal win condition for teams, and we see teams, such as shark fish that aim for 3-0, shouldn't there also be teams that aim for 6-0 or 4-1?"

Can you point out where in that I said a team is only designed to kill? I believe I was quite clear that some teams may aim for a win condition that revolves primarily around take outs. Thus, it is not only optimal play, but it can be within the spirit of the team's design to exert significant control over the ball (often by "killing" it) until they can get the takeouts they need to win, or they can put themselves ahead enough that they can then utilize the ball to close out the game. 
 

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Alright guys, I want to start this out with the fact that I am a big fan and I am really rooting for your cast to do well. With that out of the way I'm disappointed with this episode.

Ball killing and its place in the game is an interesting topic, but it isn't an interesting one if you all agree about it. Get a guest that disagrees with you about the topic or nominate someone to fight for the merits of ball killing so that you can create the most interesting discussion possible.

You guys described the strategy as unfun. I whole wholeheartedly believe that you haven't fully thought this statement through and don't actually think that ball killing isn't fun. Playing a striking team and having the ball killed against you is rough but the process of getting that ball "unkilled" and solving the puzzle that the ball-killer has placed in front of you is one of the most rewarding things in all of guild ball.

There is this statement made a few times in the cast and forgive me for paraphrasing but it is something along the lines of "I would only kill the ball in a competitive game." I think this is the moment you really get yourselves in trouble. Implying that killing the ball was not something one did to ones friends when it is such a large part of the game is not wise. This pretty much guaranteed you the ire of half the beer and pretzel gamers that listened to you. Then later in the episode you poured gas on this fire by saying that good players don't kill the ball. When in fact it is the opposite putting most competitive players against you. (Fast proof of this: More dice rolls over the course of the game reduces the amount of luck involved there for the skill requirement goes up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlgISa9Giw)

"There should be a rule against killing the ball." You know I actually agree with you here, but there is one little piece of information that you guys don't seem to know. There already is an anti-ball killing rule! It's on page 42 of the season 3 rule book.

59360e92eef45_ballkillingrule.PNG.b4ba56e6fb9d7cde15921d20ee4b2f61.PNG

What this rule does is soft ban absurd ball killing by shrinking the field space that the ball-killer can be on. Allowing the strategy to be employed, but not to be overly oppressive. The design is actually very clever.

 

You guys missed the mark this time around, but I have total faith you will come back strong with a great episode 5.

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Enjoyed the episode.

Unfortunately you have left me in a position where I find myself agreeing with @Slothrop insofar as I completely disagree with you about killing the ball.

Whilst GB is a sports game, it is not solely a game about goal scoring hence takeouts as a victory condition. Further, the Guilds exist on a spectrum from kill-team to goal-team which defines their approach to achieving victory, ergo killing players and killing the ball may not be your preferred approach but it is an approach explicitly endorsed by the very mechanics of the game.

If you take the current goal-heavy meta and the prevalence of Fish and Alchemists, the only rational response for a team that tends toward a 0-6, 1-4 or even 2-2 game is that at some point you are forced to kill the ball because you flat out lose if you don't.

I get that you feel aggrieved by the (actually quite forseeable) shift in the meta but as a player who tends more toward the kill side of the game, my biggest negative play experience is having to effectively start the game at 0-8 after Shark has scored twice on me and shot Fish DNA all over my team meaning I have no counterplay options.

I would be a frickin' idiot if I didn't kill the ball and start chopping my way through before i let it go. Further, killing the ball in a specific spot dictates the movement of your team and lets me play my counter-strategy. That said, it is a difficult prospect shutting down that last Shark goal and if I balls-up an activation, the game is likely over for me.

It's all relative I guess but f*#k you lot for making me agree with Botts.

Keep up the good work.

Isante, HammerTime, JS and 4 others like this

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