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Oddman

Help me vs Butchers!

So just started playing engineers (after 4-5 months with Masons) and I'm really enjoying them. Much harder to play than Masons, however.

My usual gaming partner is playing Butchers, and I have to admit I'm having a lot of trouble. The six I usually take are:

  1. Ballista
  2. Mother
  3. Hoist
  4. Ratchet
  5. Velocity
  6. Locus

I tried with Colossus but I find he's just too squishy and can be taken out in a single activation with Boar or Fillet, especially if he's already bleeding.

My tactic is generally to stay back, firing off dead bolts and triple blasted earths, usually with a tooled up hoist, focusing on rather squishy models like Fillet, so that if she comes in I can polish her off easily.

I find this works fine for turns 1 and 2, but by turn 3 the butchers in my face and I have a real hard time finding lanes to score a goal and ease that pressure. Also, with Ballista and Ratchet being rather squishy, I find they tend to die first.

Any tips?

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I don't play Butchers often so take everything with a grain of salt.  I would suggest debuffing the crap out of movement and attacks. Score turn one when possible. Feed them the player you want them to take out so you can do what you want.  Hoist especially. He lives so easily it isn't funny.  And if he copies Singled out he can set up Colossus to blow people away.  Colossus with second wind into a scrum to blow it apart then run back.  Keep Ratchet back as much as possible to tool up Ballista.  Put Ballista in a nest marker fort to block charges and make sure to have mine field up as often as you can when the scrum is close by. Knock everyone down as often as possible. Use reanimate to make them cry. Some say bring all the reanimate models so bring Pin Vice.  I always like Ballista more.   Of course Harry could control the crap out of some butchers. Goad and Molotov are really good.  But again he's squishy so needs to be at the back ready to crazy charge if he needs to. 

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Butchers are one of the few teams that I get regular play time against so I may be able to help.  I like the list for the most part.  The big thing I would suggest is replace Locus with Compound.  Compound is an auto include for me against Butchers.  I typically spread Ballista, Hoist, and Ratchet in such a way that Compound can almost slip between them.  Play with max range on the character players and you should be able to back up into his counter charge safety for turn 2.  This typically means the Butchers player must take a less ideal angle or wait until they can waste a player to eat the counter charge.  Worst case scenario you get a crowd out.  Velocity could also be replaced with Colossus or Harry.  Harry gives easy momentum but that isn’t a race you can win for long if they get in close.  When compared to Colossus, you are giving up Velocity’s easy goal score for easy access to KD and singled out.  Its personal preference really.  As a final thought, I would say use Blasted Earth for control turn one and think about damage turn two.  Delay the scrum when possible and play on your side of the board when you can.

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On 5/25/2017 at 7:48 PM, Oddman said:

So just started playing engineers (after 4-5 months with Masons) and I'm really enjoying them. Much harder to play than Masons, however.

My usual gaming partner is playing Butchers, and I have to admit I'm having a lot of trouble. The six I usually take are:

  1. Ballista
  2. Mother
  3. Hoist
  4. Ratchet
  5. Velocity
  6. Locus

I tried with Colossus but I find he's just too squishy and can be taken out in a single activation with Boar or Fillet, especially if he's already bleeding.

My tactic is generally to stay back, firing off dead bolts and triple blasted earths, usually with a tooled up hoist, focusing on rather squishy models like Fillet, so that if she comes in I can polish her off easily.

I find this works fine for turns 1 and 2, but by turn 3 the butchers in my face and I have a real hard time finding lanes to score a goal and ease that pressure. Also, with Ballista and Ratchet being rather squishy, I find they tend to die first.

Any tips?

A few points that may help to change how you are approaching the matchup.

Ballista and Colossus are not "squishy" models. Specifically, colossus is much more survivable than locus, or really any model in the engineers besides hoist (and in some circumstances a nimble velocity).  Yes, they can be killed, especially by the likes of butcher models. That said, they are much heartier than you may think. The key is not to overextend them and let them get in bad situations, e.g. getting crowded out. Fillet particularly has problems going into Ballista, as on just 2 hits on the counter attack she is getting double pushed out of melee. Having 2 momentum in early turns so that you can both defensive stance and counter attack when fillet charges in is very important, and with character plays you can make that happen pretty reliably. I would say that Colossus is one of the first models you want to consider in most engineer lineups, including into butchers. Singled out, 2 inch melee, low momentous KD and lots of tankiness are huge for the engineers. 

Additional advice when it comes to model selection is that if you are aiming for the 2/2 victory, you really want a union model (harry and Averisse & greede are great choices - decimate is decent as well) that can either help set up models such as ballista/hoist or do significant momentous damage themselves. Harry in particular is huge - a KD & singled out Fillet dies very quickly to him, she almost always triggers rising anger, and once he crazies his counter attack makes it very hard for her to ever go into him. 

With that, my suggestions for an ideal lineup into butchers is what I would call the "standard" ballista lineup: Ballista, mother, hoist, rachet, colossus, harry. If you want to stick with pure guild, then putting in compound is a decent choice. He is a solid battery model that can prevent snap back goals and also plays a good defensive role against early fillet charges. Velocity is also good and shifts you more towards the goal scoring game. 

Now your general strategy towards approaching the butchers seems fine. With the ballista lineup, you definitely want toss out dead bolt and blast earths early to chip away at their health and generate momentum. If you receive, I would always leave the possibility of the overclocked burrow hoist goal on the table until last activation, and then make the decision to go based on how your opponent sets up in defense to it. You want to minimize the butchers player's ability to do much of anything turn 1, and secure the momentum lead going into turn 2. From there, you want to continue the chip damage/control, forcing your opponent to overextend and come into you unsupported. You then counter and start stacking the crowd outs, KDs, pushes etc. to isolate their models. Once you have done that and have neutralized their best damage dealers, then you can start attacking the ball aggressively and going for goals, all while holding onto those takeouts that you have already setup for. 

The key is being able to manage the opponent's threat ranges and control them through dead bolt, blast earth, minefield, etc. so that they have to risk either taking too much damage on the way in, or they have to rush in and overextend. Then you counter and isolate them from their team, so that they start coming into you piecemeal. 

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Face similar problems against Butchers. Play against two very good Butcher players and have little to no joy against them whether Ballista or Pin Vice into Fillet or Ox.

Closer games I try to avoid the scrum and go for goals. When I mix it up I can take somebody out whether Meathook or Boiler or Princess turn 1 or early turn 2 but by then the horde have arrived and battered me into smush.

I run Ballista, Mother, Velocity, Hoist, Ratchet, Locus. The momentous gun line generally gets 5/6 momentum reliably turn 1 then switching up to Velocity and Mother getting away from the centre.

or Pin Vice, Mother, Velocity, Ratchet, Colossus, Locus. I immediately separate the team out bar Ratchet and Pin Vice.

 

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On 2017-5-30 at 9:55 AM, drumkee_thunder said:

Face similar problems against Butchers. Play against two very good Butcher players and have little to no joy against them whether Ballista or Pin Vice into Fillet or Ox.

Closer games I try to avoid the scrum and go for goals. When I mix it up I can take somebody out whether Meathook or Boiler or Princess turn 1 or early turn 2 but by then the horde have arrived and battered me into smush.

I run Ballista, Mother, Velocity, Hoist, Ratchet, Locus. The momentous gun line generally gets 5/6 momentum reliably turn 1 then switching up to Velocity and Mother getting away from the centre.

or Pin Vice, Mother, Velocity, Ratchet, Colossus, Locus. I immediately separate the team out bar Ratchet and Pin Vice.

 

My friend is starting to get good at keeping them spread out, so the early blasted earths/deadbolts are becoming less efficient for momentum generation, but it's still keeping him back, which is awesome. Your lineup is exactly what I've been taking, and I keep Locus back to help with additional pushes and/or knock downs against 1 or more opponents before moving him out of range. I find this really costs him, especially if I can get 2-3 knock downs in a turn. I can then pass the ball to locus (if he's charged in) and dodge him back out so they're forced to spend momentum to come at him.

I definitely go for a 3/0 scoring team, and with mother/hoist and velocity I find this is generally easy to do. Last game he got 7 points, so it was a closer game, and I really stuffed the turn 1 goal (didn't give hoist enough influence). The thing I love about the mother/hoist/ratchet setup, is that turn 1 I can give hoist 4 influence and ratchet 3, and it looks as though I'll go for the double tooled-up blasted earth, and quite easily switch to a turn 1 goal with mother and burrow replicated. Such a lovely setup and synergy between those 3, I love it!

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