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alternate ai cards?

so was contemplating the stagnation of repeat runs.

theirs a point between when you have a tough time against enemies, and when you completely stream role them that the fights pretty much play out exactly the same every single time you enter the room.

silver knight moves up> hits you for 1-2 pushes you into x square > other knight moves into that square hits for 1-2> pushes you into x square 2 archers attack> you kill knight> etc

plays out exactly the same every time you enter the room and the end result is you win.

 

so was considering the possibility of having 2 or 3 cards for the enemies and drawing them at random when you enter the room that modifies their AI a little bit.

so silver knight could be

silver knight - move 2 > range 0 -5 damage aoe+knockback

silver knight -> move 2> range 0 6 damage aoe

silver knight -> move 2 forward> range 0 4damage aoe+knockback > move back 1

 

stargorger and Visceroth like this

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I can easily see future expansions and fan expansions adding alternate AI cards. I feel like Minions were originally supposed to have behavior decks very early in the kickstarter but that may have just been my own personal assumption at the time. 

Certain minions, if ever included, might flat out need multiple cards to accurately reflect their diversity of abilities and role in the video game. I'm more interested in the possibility of minion types having whole behavior decks than picking just one randomly. It would be most cool to me if the minions had multiple behaviors based on board states, though. It would feel more like actual AI and programming.

Taking your Silver Knight example, I think something like the following could be neat:

-If more than 2 nodes away from a Player, they stay put.

-If within 2 nodes of a player, they do their normal behavior.

-If on a node with a player, they do a less damaging attack with no push and then back away one node.

It could really add a lot of flavor to minions. I think just the rules above could do a neat job of emulating how Silver Knights in the video game just stand back looking cool as opposed to rushing you and also how they tend to back off and circle you a bit. I can see it all being a mess to balance though haha.

EDIT: This just gave me an idea. I've heard people were disappointed in the tactical options when playing with only one character. What if single character games added actual "aggro" rules to enemies. If an enemy's behavior card cannot take them into attack range of you, they don't do anything. If you make an attack against an enemy, that enemy and all enemies on that node are considered "activated" and will come after you no matter what. In this way the player has more considerations about their movement and order of actions, so as to avoid being dogpiled. In a multi character game you have to juggle the aggro across characters, and maybe this can provide a way to juggle aggro with just one character present. I'm curious to try this. 

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Those ideas sound great. I agree that mobs should have their own (even if tiny) AI decks...not having them, and just relying on static 'always does this move' cards is a bit...mmm, un-inventive in my opinion. 

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They could have a deck of cards for each minion type with several reprints and you draw for each minion from that deck, so you could have 20 silver knight cards, 10 are normal 2 have defence (don't move but increase resistance) 4 have swipe (attack everyone on node) 4 have rush (damage on push, then attack) each silver knight would draw from the same deck in turn so only 1 deck required for each minion type

i haven't played the game so these are just  random examples, obviously they would closer match gameplay 

stargorger likes this

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I think a good solution would be to have three behavior cards for each opponent.

And at the beginning of the fight you draw one.
If the fight is over, you have to put all three together, and at the next one you draw another card.

This may not change much from the level of difficulty, but it makes it much more individual.
With several behavior cards for a mob drawn like a boss, I think, is much too strenuous and
difficult.

 

So I get the right to play Dark Souls again, to watch the Movesets, so I can create Behavior cards.

Now Steamforge would only have to build a Behaviorcard generator for the already existing Enemys.

Steamforge you hear me?!

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Even though it has been done in other games and feel copy paste, much of Dark Souls enemy AI is based on variables like "if"s and "else"s. That's why you can bait behaviours by performing certain actions. My idea and what I probably will do is to create "large" double sided cards or "sheets" for the non-boss enemies with what they do as a standard behaviour and variations if certain things happen. An archer would directly pick a magic user as target if magic was used and otherwise perform the normal actions, just as an example. It becomes strategic because you have to keep in mind how your actions will affect the enemies, which depending on what you do can be to your benefit or a deadly mistake.

Not as repetitive as one single behaviour and not random which can make them completely stupid.

That is my thoughts on it at least.

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As @IndustrialDefect said, the AI of the enemies on the videogame works with "If/Else". Take a look at the Silver Knights with bow, for instance: If you are far away they will shoot with their greatbows, but when you are at melee range they act like regular Silver Knights. This kind of behaviour is easy to implement (But hard to balance, I have to admit) just with an additional AI card for every grunt, so you have a main card with the regular behaviour and stats and the other card with some conditions.

E.G. based on @hamsjams comment:

Silver Knight with Bow:

1) If one or more players are on the same node as SKB, light attack to every player at range 0 and move two nodes away.

2) If the distance between SKB and the players is greater than two nodes, normal ranged attack (As it appears in the main card) plus 1 damage without moving.

3) Regular Behaviour.

 

With just three commands, the SKB is going to aim and shoot if he is alone, shoot and move if he has a player at a distance of one or two nodes and attack with the sword and run away if he has players at the same node. It isn't that complicated and gives depth to the combat, as one player might want to dodge another attack and roll into the node of the SKB in order to protect the player with the aggro token from the iron umbrella arrow of doom. Oh, and in this example is not necessary, but I think that an AI card needs to have the commands numbered in order of importance (If the first condition is valid, ignore the second and third; if the first condition is invalid but the second one is valid, ignore the third etc...), it makes easier the "programming" and understanding what is going to do the grunt.

 

I know that balancing this kind of AI is quite challenging, but with time and lots of testing it could develop in a really interesting house rule.

stargorger likes this

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3 hours ago, Trusty Patches said:

 

Those are great ideas and very similar to what I was thinking of myself. Of course the hardest part, IMO, is inventing all these ourselves and making our own AI cards...would be much better if Steamforged would put them out as an expansion :)

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49 minutes ago, stargorger said:

Those are great ideas and very similar to what I was thinking of myself. Of course the hardest part, IMO, is inventing all these ourselves and making our own AI cards...would be much better if Steamforged would put them out as an expansion :)

While you're on the topic.

Aside from the miniatures, we still don't know what'll come with the core game expansion, right?

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1 hour ago, Ragnara said:

 

True enough. So far I think the Kickstarter and updates have indicated that it will include models of the terrain pieces (barrels, chests, etc...) the Pursuer mini-boss (presumably with ai cards and loot), Fire Bomb Hollows, and Silver Knight Lancers. Alonne was moved to the Iron Keep expansion. Beyond that, no idea.

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6 minutes ago, stargorger said:

True enough. So far I think the Kickstarter and updates have indicated that it will include models of the terrain pieces (barrels, chests, etc...) the Pursuer mini-boss (presumably with ai cards and loot), Fire Bomb Hollows, and Silver Knight Lancers. Alonne was moved to the Iron Keep expansion. Beyond that, no idea.

I think the metal token is supposed to be in that pack as well.

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