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D S SIRIUS

Treasure Deck Balancing

37 posts in this topic
20 hours ago, calisk said:

I already am doing the shop thing.

 

I was doing 30 cards revealed, and they cost 3 souls to buy a regular 6 souls to buy advanced or legendary gear.

when you buy something something else gets put into the shop and then reshuffle the deck between mini boss and boss.

 

this allows you to plan your builds and honestly waste less souls.

30 cards?  That is half the common loot deck...  I think the point is to not be able to plan your build.  You have to adapt and overcome the challenge, otherwise it becomes the same exact encounter with the same exact gear every time you go back to that mini-boss and boss.  Yeah their attacks will be different, but so decked out in gear makes it not matter...  Here I thought 10 cards was overkill.

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I think people need to play test to see what the balance is like. I couldn't say either way if it made it too easy or not without trying it first. 

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4 hours ago, KaiinRetsu said:

30 cards?  That is half the common loot deck...  I think the point is to not be able to plan your build.  You have to adapt and overcome the challenge, otherwise it becomes the same exact encounter with the same exact gear every time you go back to that mini-boss and boss.  Yeah their attacks will be different, but so decked out in gear makes it not matter...  Here I thought 10 cards was overkill.

depends on if you like the random nature of drawing random gear and the tedious nature of grinding to pull random cards from the deck hoping to pull the right equipment.

30 cards is about a third of the deck, and it's random enough that your build varies, if you want to try different builds.

only played 2 games in this fashion and they both went the same way, so far pick up an early weapon after the first 2 fights that's better then my starting weapon, then begin building my stats to get the better gear in the lot, first game it was the claymore with the blood gem, second game it was lothric blade with some titanite, in this case it was because I wanted to to do a two handed build the first time, but I wanted to do a defensive sword shield style the second time.

now that's not to say you are incorrect, if for some reason you wanted to do a two handed build every time it's possible with this shop size that you can probably pull it off even if the weapons are not always the exact same, but if that's what you enjoy why does it matter? it seems like you'd get more enjoyment that way and btw even with this it still took 3 and 2 runs to complete the first mini-boss, which is about the same as it took our runs with no house rules, but we found it much more enjoyable as planning was involved rather then luck as to how we built out characters, and the grinding felt like we had more purpose behind it when we did it

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I've been playtesting this 10card shop a bit in a 4-player game and the simplest version described at the top of this thread works absolutely fine.  start with 10. when they get bought, draw a new one. when you get chests, add them to the 'shop deck' and get on with it.  

The thing with pre-stacking with weapons is they are incredibly powerful and provide a much higher boost than armour does which upgrades incrementally.  Loading a shop with all the tasty weapons early on will diminish the difficulty curve of the game, essentially allowing parties to 1-shot their way through most tiers of encounter which will lead to a different form of stagnation where the game just becomes easy and then gets shelved.

 

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37 minutes ago, Iteken said:

I've been playtesting this 10card shop a bit in a 4-player game and the simplest version described at the top of this thread works absolutely fine.  start with 10. when they get bought, draw a new one. when you get chests, add them to the 'shop deck' and get on with it.  

The thing with pre-stacking with weapons is they are incredibly powerful and provide a much higher boost than armour does which upgrades incrementally.  Loading a shop with all the tasty weapons early on will diminish the difficulty curve of the game, essentially allowing parties to 1-shot their way through most tiers of encounter which will lead to a different form of stagnation where the game just becomes easy and then gets shelved.

 

This has been my concern. And not just for shop decks, but the regular rules, too.

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1 hour ago, Danny said:

This has been my concern. And not just for shop decks, but the regular rules, too.

I don't consider it a difficulty curve if you could do the exact same thing with a lucky draw on the first turn.

any weapon you could buy from a shop is something you could draw with luck on the first turn.

that's not a difficulty curve it's an artificial challenge, if the game is truly challenging then you should have a tough time with any combination of gear you use.

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4 minutes ago, calisk said:

I don't consider it a difficulty curve if you could do the exact same thing with a lucky draw on the first turn.

any weapon you could buy from a shop is something you could draw with luck on the first turn.

that's not a difficulty curve it's an artificial challenge, if the game is truly challenging then you should have a tough time with any combination of gear you use.

The way I see it is you don't start with a +15 zweihander, you can start with a zweihander, but until you defeat certain bosses, reach certain areas and find certain materials that weapon is not necessarily ready to take down a boss.

 

This game doesn't have all those prerequisites. You just draw a card, level into it and BOOM! End game weapo n before the miniboss.

 

If you're playing like this, it makes all the mid range weapons pointless effectively.

 

I'd rather get the mid range weapons, and save the endgame stuff for endgame.

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5 minutes ago, calisk said:

I don't consider it a difficulty curve if you could do the exact same thing with a lucky draw on the first turn.

any weapon you could buy from a shop is something you could draw with luck on the first turn.

that's not a difficulty curve it's an artificial challenge, if the game is truly challenging then you should have a tough time with any combination of gear you use.

I feel as though this is where good board game mechanics vs good video game mechanics are starting to blur. 

Obviously this is all personal taste right, but I like a bit of rng in board games. Despite the fact that I adore the Souls franchise for the opposite reasons, on the table I believe the game could become stale if reliable to obtain builds become a thing.

What makes video games (out side of great game play & story) tick for me is the surprise of what is coming next. Like a novel, you have no idea what is around the next corner. Where as a board game, even if the rules are written in a way that enables surprises to happen (i.e such and such occurs refer to page 21 "everyone dies lol.") All of the answers are still physically in front of you at all times. Without compromising the game too much, I believe rng to be beneficial in the table top world in order to capture these moments again and again.

Plus, it's impossible to translate the "skill" aspects of DS into a board game. And is imo an unrealistic expectation.

Sorry i got side tracked slightly there, but you get where i'm coming from :)   

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2 minutes ago, Danny said:

The way I see it is you don't start with a +15 zweihander, you can start with a zweihander, but until you defeat certain bosses, reach certain areas and find certain materials that weapon is not necessarily ready to take down a boss.

 

This game doesn't have all those prerequisites. You just draw a card, level into it and BOOM! End game weapo n before the miniboss.

 

If you're playing like this, it makes all the mid range weapons pointless effectively.

 

I'd rather get the mid range weapons, and save the endgame stuff for endgame.

depends, in practice i find it plays differently then that in my games, but I also don't play solo. those +16 souls to start mess with the system quite a bit.

 

anyway let's say zweinhander is in the shop, along side something a bit more moderate like scimitar.

with multiple players working up their characters when you can use that scimitar you will buy it and use it until you have the soulss to use that zweinhander, and most likely you will end up using it for awhile

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The video game balances it generally by putting more advanced items into the later parts of the game, or at least the items needed to make the item truly more effective for later game. 

Has anyone tried the treasure deck tiering in conjunction with the shop method? 

So basically instead of completely randomly selecting 10 cards at the beginning of the game, you take 10 cards out of the level 1 deck etc. 

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9 minutes ago, Flak said:

I feel as though this is where good board game mechanics vs good video game mechanics are starting to blur. 

Obviously this is all personal taste right, but I like a bit of rng in board games. Despite the fact that I adore the Souls franchise for the opposite reasons, on the table I believe the game could become stale if reliable to obtain builds become a thing.

What makes video games (out side of great game play & story) tick for me is the surprise of what is coming next. Like a novel, you have no idea what is around the next corner. Where as a board game, even if the rules are written in a way that enables surprises to happen (i.e such and such occurs refer to page 21 "everyone dies lol.") All of the answers are still physically in front of you at all times. Without compromising the game too much, I believe rng to be beneficial in the table top world in order to capture these moments again and again.

Plus, it's impossible to translate the "skill" aspects of DS into a board game. And is imo an unrealistic expectation.

Sorry i got side tracked slightly there, but you get where i'm coming from :)   

while you are completely correct that you can't translate the skills of fast reactions and combat in real time, I believe the game can do an excellent job of playing to the mental part of the dark souls game.

reading opponents attacks to avoid them, and taking advantage of weaknesses etc isa big part of the game, at least when it comes to fighting bosses as normal enemies can have 1 of two weaknesses but may not have either, they are either weak to magic or not weak to magic, or they have 1 speed and you can stay out of their range, but either way it's the fact that you can see in advance exactly how a turn will go that let's you apply strategy and in that you get the skill aspect.

planning your build is another aspect of skill that can be applied to the game, but that's a personal preference for sure

6 minutes ago, D S SIRIUS said:

The video game balances it generally by putting more advanced items into the later parts of the game, or at least the items needed to make the item truly more effective for later game. 

Has anyone tried the treasure deck tiering in conjunction with the shop method? 

So basically instead of completely randomly selecting 10 cards at the beginning of the game, you take 10 cards out of the level 1 deck etc. 

I always follow the usual tiering system for my shops.

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1 minute ago, calisk said:

while you are completely correct that you can't translate the skills of fast reactions and combat in real time, I believe the game can do an excellent job of playing to the mental part of the dark souls game.

reading opponents attacks to avoid them, and taking advantage of weaknesses etc, at least when it comes to fighting bosses as normal enemies can have 1 of two weaknesses but may not have either, they are either weak to magic or not weak to magic, or they have 1 speed and you can stay out of their range, but either way it's the fact that you can see in advance exactly how a turn will go that let's you apply strategy and in that you get the skill aspect.

planning your build is another aspect of skill that can be applied to the game, but that's a personal preference for sure

Yeah I agree man. 

Even though I do like rng in board games, I'm definitely going to try some of the house rules out. Also by the end of the year hopefully there will be enough content between all of the expansions to help elevate any woes people have with the current gear system.

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