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Am I the only person who never liked Midas? I have played Alchemists since I started playing when season 2 came out, and all I heard was: "Midas is so good! OMG Midas best captain in the game! He is so great! Why would anyone ever not run Midas forever?!?"

But I never got the hype. He is decent I guess, but I always like the control and synergy of Smoke more than the randomness and influence hogging of Midas. I actually like him a little better now in Season 3 after he lost his terrible power steal ability (which was also over-hyped and never worth the influence cost) and now seems like a point guard to move the ball to Vitriol (but his poor kicking ability is annoying).

 

What am I missing? I just don't get it...

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Back in season 1, the Alchemist team was poorly designed and in a lot of ways the condition game was a trap.  Those who found the most success hardly used it at all and Midas was the player best able to function without it.  A lot of players are still used to that play style even though there are viable alternatives now.

In season 2, Midas was hands down the single most flexible piece in the game.  True Replication took him from 'decent at everything' to 'decent at everything and unreasonably good at one specific thing'.  Just having him in your 8 man roster made it very difficult to run certain players like Gutter, who was considered OP at the time. Pseudepigraphy was one of two abilities in the game that flat out gave momentum, no strings attached.  It was a common misconception that he was an influence hog.  The thing that separated the great Midas players from the okay Midas players was always knowing when to load him up and when he could do what he need to do with only a little influence.

In season 3, Midas is "only" a great footballer, but he now has Lure of Gold and Promise of Fortune.  Two of the better plays to steal in season 2 were Where'd They Go? and Midnight Offer, and now the ability to move other players and segmented movement are built into Midas's kit natively.  Where he really shines compared to Smoke is his independence.  He can often score in one activation with a full stack of influence, no matter what's going on with the rest of his team which makes him very hard to disrupt.  Smoke by contrast has a very hard time getting the ball off a player herself.

In short, Midas is still potent and flexible while Smoke limits the Alchemist player's activation order and has serious limits when acting on on her own.  I believe this is what contributes to Midas's popularity.

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5 hours ago, Quwaz said:

Am I the only person who never liked Midas? I have played Alchemists since I started playing when season 2 came out, and all I heard was: "Midas is so good! OMG Midas best captain in the game! He is so great! Why would anyone ever not run Midas forever?!?"

But I never got the hype. He is decent I guess, but I always like the control and synergy of Smoke more than the randomness and influence hogging of Midas. I actually like him a little better now in Season 3 after he lost his terrible power steal ability (which was also over-hyped and never worth the influence cost) and now seems like a point guard to move the ball to Vitriol (but his poor kicking ability is annoying).

 

What am I missing? I just don't get it...

Honestly, it sounds like you may be undervaluing a lot of his abilities and stats.

Midas has a 3/8 base kick. That is demonstrably not "poor kicking ability." 8 inch range is higher than the majority of other models in the game (e.g., it is equal to both shark and vitriol). 3 dice is considered average for a captain (Obulus, rage 2 and hammer have 2 die kicks, Shark, Skatha, smoke, honor, Ballista and Pin Vice have 4 die kicks, the rest have 3 die kicks). In addition to this, he has super shot, which brings him to a 4/10 kick, which is one of the best kick stats in the game (beaten only by angel with super shot, Friday under football legend and her heroic, Ballista legendary [ties him]).

Vitriol is an amazing player. Probably the best non captain in the game. That said, midas is way more than a model to get her the ball. He has a native 20 inch goal threat, 1 inch longer than vitriol's threat, with the same 4 die kick. He is a 5/0 with unpredictable, and often a 5/1 after activating, which makes him quite durable and hard to get to (or get the ball off of). He has elements of control via his legendary, which further rewards you for scoring. He generates momentum very reliably through dodges and the like, which synergize with his scoring ability. 

On top of this, he provides amazing support to his team through lure of gold. Increasing the threat range of other models by 5/6 inches or getting them out of trouble if they are overextended are both invaluable. 

Overall, I'd say midas is much more flexible than smoke. He doesn't rely on conditions, he can support his team, and is an amazing striker on his own. Smoke has great non linear threat on goal, but her ability to get the ball is actually quite poor, with tac 4 and 1 inch melee. 

Arkin, burroboskov and Slothrop like this

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I'd say you were/are clearly missing simething if you think True Rep was never worth the inf. I think this is just tla case of wanting to be different/ not use what is popular.

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24 minutes ago, Dracilic said:

I'd say you were/are clearly missing simething if you think True Rep was never worth the inf. I think this is just tla case of wanting to be different/ not use what is popular.

I can believe someone would genuinely make that mistake.  5 influence is such a big investment that the only time it's affordable is turn 1 and if you haven't figured out all the tricks to get Midas to his target, it's difficult to pull off if your opponent is even a little cognizant of it.  It's been a while since I played season 2 Midas, but if he were to come back I'd have to relearn how to kick off because he loves that extra advance but he doesn't exert nearly as much pressure as Vitriol does.

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I get that Midas is a good independent player on the ball and with on ball defense, but Guild Ball isn't a 1 man sport. Smoke has so much more mobility and unpredictability. With her and Vitriol throwing smokes they can cover a lot of the pitch and lure defenders out of position for each other.

I also see long kicks as decent, but I would take a 4/6 over a 3/8 any time. I've scored loads of goals with Smoke having her pop around to get set up. There is no point in kicking it from 8-10 inches out if you just miss the shot with less dice to roll.

The only match I lost playing season 2 was also one of the few times I tried Midas. I was against Fish who tied Midas down for the 3 turns it took them to score enough to win.

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6 minutes ago, Quwaz said:

I get that Midas is a good independent player on the ball and with on ball defense, but Guild Ball isn't a 1 man sport. Smoke has so much more mobility and unpredictability. With her and Vitriol throwing smokes they can cover a lot of the pitch and lure defenders out of position for each other.

I also see long kicks as decent, but I would take a 4/6 over a 3/8 any time. I've scored loads of goals with Smoke having her pop around to get set up. There is no point in kicking it from 8-10 inches out if you just miss the shot with less dice to roll.

The only match I lost playing season 2 was also one of the few times I tried Midas. I was against Fish who tied Midas down for the 3 turns it took them to score enough to win.

It's true that guild ball isn't a one man sport, but it's also true that Midas contributes to his team's victory while he's got three players dog piling him to keep him from running off to score.  Like I said earlier, the different between a decent and great Midas player is knowing when not to give him influence.  There are enough powerful independent players in the alchemists (although admitted in season 2 most of them were union players) that no matter whom your opponent negates, whoever is left can win the game with the free reign they've been given.  That simply isn't true of Smoke, although I don't understand why you think she's unpredictable.  Putting the ball on a 4+/1 model and she has a very hard time getting it off and if her team hasn't laid down templates for her, she can't do enough work to justify her slot without the ball.  If Midas's team is underneath a pile of Brewers, he can win on his own, but if Smoke's team is under there she's in serious trouble.

As far as kicks go, the jump from 3 to 4 kick dice turns 1/16 kicks from a failure to a success.  By contrast, the jump from 6" to 8" enables kicks that otherwise wouldn't have been possible.  Smoke gets around her short kick (for a striker) with her 8" placement, but on any other player the 3/8" kick will enable more goals.  This is the main reason I think Midas is listed as a Striker and Smoke is listed as a Midfielder, despite that they're both great at scoring.  4/10" lets Midas score from barely across the halfway line, but Smoke's 4/6" kick makes her much better at serving the ball to Vitriol or standing around to enable a snap shot.

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Midas is also one of the only 2 captains in the game who can pretend like guild ball is a 1 man team. I've had triple players hug midas before and he just push dodges his way out, makes his way to the ball and scores anyway. you simply cannot pin him down sometimes. (the other 1 man army captain being Shark)

In fact one time i was playing obulus and midas was going for a goal run and he had to eat a free strike from obulus, who KD'd him, he just got up w/ momentum, heroic'd and push dodged his way to the ball. Not many players can get KD in the middle of their activation and still achieve something. Midas is incredible at what he does. Even shark would've been game over in that spot.

Smoke has mobility yes, but so does midas who's essentially got 10" of movement for 1 inf, prior to his push dodge shenanigans and then his 4/10 kick which allows him to take shots smoke can't take. He's also a million times better at ball retrieval than smoke who's got a very weak TAC and non mom T on 2. 

Lure of gold is also very very strong. 

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2 hours ago, Napoleon said:

...Not many players can get KD in the middle of their activation and still achieve something. Midas is incredible at what he does...

This is the crux of it. He is so versatile that you can change game plans with him halfway through a turn if everything goes bits up. And now with Lure of Gold he isn't just a one man show, but can provide vital support to making others shine. vKat has a big charge range, but it's even larger with a free jog...

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I tried playing  Smoke again, and to be honest I don't see any competition in her for Midas. She can't even reliably tackle a 3+ def 1arm model which is a rather poor pair of def stats, she prefers to go later in the turn to move/copy AOEs and gives almost no support to the team. I want her to work, but IMO she needs TAC5, a mom tackle (can on the 2nd column) and maybe some dodges on the playbook.

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I find Midas is great support, and my main scorer. Vitriol tend to retrieve, as Clone keeps her safe and she has the 2" melee to get safe 1 hit :T:. I'd also take a 4/10 kick over 4/6 any day (cos who doesn't put enough INF for the Supershot?).

Over Vengeance, I also found more and more that Alchemists are almost a denial/control team. They have enough fast movers with reasonable kicks to kick the ball about and retrieve it if they miss, with Harry successful kicks are 4" dodges. Burning, Blind and Compound can just shut down players/sections of the pitch. On at least one occasion at the weekend, my opponent was clearly lining up my oKat for a massive charge, but Midas nipped back toward my goal and used Lure of Gold to pull oKat out of danger, also giving me a defensive line of Midas, Compound and oKat threatening to annihilate anyone who got close, forcing him to keep his strong attackers way back and allowing me to whizz the ball round the side with Naja and Vitriol, with Harry supporting (and keeping up burning AoEs from behind cover). I had a couple of other shutouts/near shutouts (one game all 5 of my opponent's points came from me timing out).

Smoke I find better against low DEF aggressive teams like Butchers and Masons. Her shutout and weaken style (with Blind from Calculus) can keep Fillet out of the game, and as they want to come close, the weakening from poison and her Legendary give you so many targets for a Witness Me! or two. I wouldn't play her into Union or Brewers at all, especially now Grace is available (removing his AoEs is what makes Harry go CRAZY!).

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How are butchers a low def team? Almost all the important players are 4+/1arm or better.

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2 hours ago, Edek said:

How are butchers a low def team? Almost all the important players are 4+/1arm or better.

It depends on the lineup, but you can see a lot of DEF 3+ with Truffles, Boar, Harry, and vOx.  I agree, though, I don't generally think of Butchers as a low def team.  But they're definitely fragile, where Smoke's legendary + conditions can make it easy for vKat and others to finish them off.

When I play Smoke, I'll usually load her up with INF for the turn when she uses her legendary, and other than that she doesn't get much.  Usually I'll leave her somewhere in the middle of the field with 2-3 INF for two purposes:  she can pretty reliably counter-score off of a goal kick, or I'll activate her late to spread conditions around at the end of the turn.  Her TAC and playbook are pretty useless for both tackling and momentum, so I rarely make attacks with her.

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It sounds like you're using your captain for 1 major turn and then a regular striker could just as well do her job. I'm not saying you're playing wrong or anything like that just pointing out the problem of Smoke.

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56 minutes ago, Edek said:

It sounds like you're using your captain for 1 major turn and then a regular striker could just as well do her job. I'm not saying you're playing wrong or anything like that just pointing out the problem of Smoke.

Well that is kind of the problem with Smoke because that's generally how she plays out on the field. The conditions game is dicey and often inefficient. Smoke generally isn't able to score more than once either. She doesn't recover the ball well on her on and if you feed it to her, unless she snaps shots, she can lose the ball again and have no way to get it back. So she basically relies on return goals.

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And the problem with return goals is that you're chasing your opponent's score. He scores, you score, he score, you score, he scores and gg 12-8

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5 minutes ago, Edek said:

And the problem with return goals is that you're chasing your opponent's score. He scores, you score, he score, you score, he scores and gg 12-8

Is it impossible that Smoke scores first?

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Ok, fair enough. But the problem is that return goals is just about most of what she can do. And Midas can do a lot more.

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2 minutes ago, Edek said:

Ok, fair enough. But the problem is that return goals is just about most of what she can do. And Midas can do a lot more.

Agreed. I'm not in any way defending Smoke. I think she is worse in mostly every match up than Midas. I'm sayin that what she does is often inefficient and she often just sits around the middle for return goals (obviously her team will be doing stuff). 

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I've had multiple games go that Smoke and Vitriol score twice and then Vkat uses "Witness Me" for the win. I've even had several games where I only score once. I don't really find the need to have a super heavily offensive lineup. Someone even said it earlier, Alchemists are about control and possession. Keep good zoning, and strike when there is an opening like Naja would.

Between Calculus, Vitriol, and Hemlocke I always have plenty of AOEs on the table each turn for Smoke to work with. I don't think I've even used Smoke to tackle more than a few times, that's what the hitters like Katalist, Venin, Mercury, and Compound are for, and Vitriol is a great ball winner. (I don't use much Union talent, mostly because of model cost)

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On Sat May 13 2017 at 5:41 AM, Quwaz said:

Am I the only person who never liked Midas? I have played Alchemists since I started playing when season 2 came out, and all I heard was: "Midas is so good! OMG Midas best captain in the game! He is so great! Why would anyone ever not run Midas forever?!?"

But I never got the hype. He is decent I guess, but I always like the control and synergy of Smoke more than the randomness and influence hogging of Midas. I actually like him a little better now in Season 3 after he lost his terrible power steal ability (which was also over-hyped and never worth the influence cost) and now seems like a point guard to move the ball to Vitriol (but his poor kicking ability is annoying).

 

What am I missing? I just don't get it...

The reason you don't like midas is because you have morals...keep it up

Dracilic likes this

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As many before me already have said, Alchemist captains are two different animals.

It honestly comes down to how you want to play the game. Midas is for the fotballer that wants the glory and goals for himself. As one mentioned before he's close to a one-man team at times. Smoke is very different and more works like a force-amplificator on the exisiting force-projection style of play the alchemists are defined by.

I have tried both captains and I am more a Midas kind of player, but I do like to have fun and whip out Smoke in some matchups, against Masons in particular. It is a strangely fine experience to blanket half the field in AoE's. At the same time this means you need to play a control and passing game with often Vitriol as your only defacto goal threat. Smoke can get some cheeky goals too, but don't count on it too much.

 

The Captains of the Alchemists are both fun and really guys, just play the one you like to play, don't think too much on the META or whatever. Just play the game and kick and poison people to your hearts content!

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I don't think Midas is all glory and goals for himself. He might have been in S2, but new Midas is striker who helps move his team around. I very, very rarely put more than 4 INF on him in S3, only on activations where he's the only person close enough to get in an get a kill (at Vengeance, once of these was him dodging out of a melee to charge and kill a damaged Greede, which took all his INF to achieve, while another had him desperately pinging Obulous to whittle him down for Harry - managed to do 5 damage off a sprint and 5 attacks, cos 6 dice on a 4/1 is giving you 2 average, which gets you :1: , :><: or momentous :<: so not amazing).

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I'm not sure how you can look at these cards and not see how Midas is good. If anything, you have to MAKE Smoke work, while Midas just looks objectively good at first glance even if we just took their cards at face value.

 

In season 2 it was so obvious that Midas was flexible and could do anything well, and Smoke looked like she was gimmicky. People often asked how to make Smoke work because she has some tools, but not quite enough to make an effective and reliable game plan.

 

Even now in season 3, Midas is still better at first glance, and on the table, even if Smoke is better than she was in season 2, Midas is still easier to use and is more flexible.

 

If you are having great success with Smoke, awesome! But I bet if you used Midas, you'd be even better... That's how much better he is than her. And it's not because Midas is OP in season 3. Smoke is still just missing some tweaks to make her relevant in comparison.

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On 20.5.2017 at 1:09 AM, S_A_T_S said:

I don't think Midas is all glory and goals for himself. He might have been in S2, but new Midas is striker who helps move his team around. I very, very rarely put more than 4 INF on him in S3, only on activations where he's the only person close enough to get in an get a kill (at Vengeance, once of these was him dodging out of a melee to charge and kill a damaged Greede, which took all his INF to achieve, while another had him desperately pinging Obulous to whittle him down for Harry - managed to do 5 damage off a sprint and 5 attacks, cos 6 dice on a 4/1 is giving you 2 average, which gets you :1: , :><: or momentous :<: so not amazing).

You're largely right in that. The S3 changes have given Midas some news tools that enable him to setup others as well. Make no mistake about it, he does it for his own glory :D He's still good old Midas, it is about him being the shining beacon of gold, the savior and all around scheming focal point of the universe. He's just that kind of lovely guy.

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