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Slothrop

Strictly the Worst: Episode 17 -- Special guest Kevin Stewart!

Friends! Romans! Countrymen! On this latest episode of Strictly the Worst, we've invited our pal Kevin "Guildball.zone" Stewart to talk with us about the South Ontario Open, the new OPD, the new Union players, and the general concept of activation advantage! TAKE A LISTEN DOWN BELOW AND SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS YET FURTHER BELOW

http://strictlytheworst.libsyn.com/episode-17

Pat also played against our pal Vince Curkov in his YouTube series "Run the Length" recently. You can check that out here: Link!
Finally, feel free to join in on the on-again-off-again chatter at Kevin's all-purpose Discord channel: https://discord.gg/WWkvubn

You can follow the cast here:
Twitter — @strictlyworstgb
Facebook — facebook.com/strictlytheworst

You can follow the individuals here:
Alex's Twitter — @LeftSlothrop
Pat's Twitter — Scum.online
Special Guest Kevin's Twitter — @guildball_zone
Special Guest Kevin's Website (again) — 
Guildball.zone

Thanks as always for listening, you guys are the best :D

tehlon and MarkM like this

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Was a little surprised you guys didn't go into which captains can be counter picked by the remaining 4. I think you alluded to it. Alex, at one point you said Sbrisket was hurt pretty bad. Jordan said something to the effect of "We're going to see a lot more Corsair". I think it would have been a good discussion to hear which captains get a boost/no effect/nerf due to this.

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1 hour ago, tehlon said:

Was a little surprised you guys didn't go into which captains can be counter picked by the remaining 4 [...] I think it would have been a good discussion to hear which captains get a boost/no effect/nerf due to this.

Hey so I think there's a couple reasons we didn't feel we needed to go into a list of every captain's interaction with this rules change.

First off, I think we covered the basics of our interpretation-- That it's a reduction of strategy in the draft, that captains that really need to be receiving (or kicking, theoretically) are hurt by this, and that captains that can be easily counterpicked are also hurt. The flipside, of course, is that since those captains are weaker, if their fellow captains don't have those problems to the same degree, the fellow captains will be played more. In Farmers, since we feel that Grange really really hates kicking, we feel that Thresher is basically always the better competitive choice since you can't know when you choose captains whether you'll be kicking.

Second, since this change is essentially just a total net loss of strategic depth for drafting, there aren't really boosts/buffs intrinsic in the change. Speaking for myself, I think of the impact of game changes in tiers... a first-tier change to, for example, Brisket3 would be a change to her card. No captain received any of that type of change in this OPD update. A second-tier change is one where the environment is definitely changed in a way that impacts models. This OPD update is almost exclusively this: since Brisket3 really wants to know whether she's kicking or receiving, and also what captain she's up against, Brisket3 has received second-tier nerfs in that she can't have the information she wants before she's chosen. There are no positive second-tier changes in this update in my opinion, simply because no player of the game of Guild Ball got any new information or options from this change. They only got less, or the same, basically.

There may feasibly be third-tier changes that are buffs for models in this OPD update, but we can't quite tell yet. A third-tier change is one where the environment is sociologically changed in a way that impacts models. By "sociologically" I basically mean the community of GB players, the meta. If, for example, Brisket3 was definitely weak against Smoke, and the OPD update made a ton of GB players stop playing Smoke, I would say Brisket3 got a positive third-tier change from the OPD. The problem with third-tier changes, and talking about them two days after the update, is that they are unpredictable especially in a game like GB where players don't interact outside their own metas much. If we felt that Smoke got slammed by this update, and therefore would not be played anymore, then in the above example we could expect Brisket3 to benefit from a third-tier buff. But that relies on everybody else agreeing and playing with only the best models---even if we're right about Smoke's strength, if tons of people continue to play Smoke anyway cause they either disagree or like her regardless, Brisket3 doesn't get her predicted boost. We on the podcast do participate in conjecture about who will play what and when, but if we're being honest we can't really predict what other players (even other good players, or other players who agree with us) will play on an individual level. Very broad trends, at best, are what we can guess at. 

Finally, with the negative reaction to the draft order changes basically across social media/the forums so far, it seems likely to me that the document may be altered again fairly soon. That would make our captain-by-captain analysis not only dubiously accurate, but quickly outdated. Not really useful for anybody. Hope that all makes sense!

1 hour ago, mr baron said:

Need more "Run the Length" Batreps.

I think we all feel that way, but Vince puts a ton of effort into putting those reports together. That's why they're definitely the best battle reports for GB in my opinion, but it's also why it takes so long for him to put them together. I've seen the man refuse games of League of Legends just to keep working on a report late into the night. Weep for the poor lad!

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I feel like 1 captain, 1 mascot lists benefit from the change so I don't know if it's a total net loss. If my opponent is fish, I now know if I'm playing against shark or corsair. And I feel that is important.

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Ok, I retract my request for card reads. It’s just too difficult to do quickly with other people around. Besides, what I had in mind was more of a summary. Like with Grace, for example, just “6/8 move, 4 TAC, 2/8 Kick, 4/0 defense, 1/3 influence, a 4 column playbook w/ some momentous doges and tackles, a ranged AOE heal CP, quick foot CP, 15 hp, with traits that gain her 2 influence, the ability to remove an AOE, and the ability to shift the origin point of her CPs to another model.” And even then, that might be too much. Just describing the CP or trait or whatever you’re referring to during discussion might be fine. But thanks as always for the content.

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46 minutes ago, landstander said:

Ok, I retract my request for card reads. It’s just too difficult to do quickly with other people around. Besides, what I had in mind was more of a summary. Like with Grace, for example, just “6/8 move, 4 TAC, 2/8 Kick, 4/0 defense, 1/3 influence, a 4 column playbook w/ some momentous doges and tackles, a ranged AOE heal CP, quick foot CP, 15 hp, with traits that gain her 2 influence, the ability to remove an AOE, and the ability to shift the origin point of her CPs to another model.” And even then, that might be too much. Just describing the CP or trait or whatever you’re referring to during discussion might be fine. But thanks as always for the content.

Haha, sorry if i read too quickly. It just felt awkward to do while they waited, I'll try to get it down better in the future. :)

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@Slothrop Very fair points all around. The "2nd tier" thoughts align with my initial reaction, although probably more well written.

Assuming we stick with this rule set for a little while: As mainly a fish player I still feel like this hurts my specific team's competitive chances, but I've come to realize I will still be running both captains. Previously I was about 60/40 Shark, but I am thinking it's going to be more like 80/20 Corsair. I still think there are a couple guilds where Shark will really skill-check the opposition. In fact, I think he is one of the main models which keep farmers from getting out of hand.

As far as the "3rd tier" idea - I really feel like these types of thoughts are what keep a meta healthy and interesting. Perhaps this is just my card game background speaking. The pure perception that something is strong against the field, but has a counter, creates a rock/paper/scissors scenario in which nothing is truly strong. The strong list beats the field, the counter beats the strong, and the field beats the counter. This is the type of parody I'd like to see in guild ball and game design in general. Of course in a 4ish round event we never want to get into match up coin flips, but if you are able to draw a bead on something unusual which will counter the best teams you should be rewarded. It could be I am wrong about this for table tops though, especially a game like this, as the available/fielded models is too limited. I think you saw I tweeted blackorifice about Guild v Guild winrates. I was interested to see if an equilibrium could be determined.

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10 hours ago, tehlon said:

@SlothropThis is the type of parody I'd like to see in guild ball and game design in general. 

Good points, but I had to comment that the typo here made me chuckle :)

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On May 12, 2017 at 6:44 PM, Slothrop said:

Haha, sorry if i read too quickly. It just felt awkward to do while they waited, I'll try to get it down better in the future. :)

I'm sorry, I may have not been clear. I think you did it the best possible, and it just won't work in genera. And I could FEEL the awkwardness - there was a significant pause when you were done before the others spoke. I think that will always happen unless the card is super streamlined, like Shank or Flint. I can only imagine if you did that for all the Farmers. I don't want to belabor it any further - I was just suggesting a light summary should be about as in depth as you guys should get (in your current format).

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6 hours ago, landstander said:

I'm sorry, I may have not been clear. I think you did it the best possible, and it just won't work in genera. And I could FEEL the awkwardness - there was a significant pause when you were done before the others spoke. I think that will always happen unless the card is super streamlined, like Shank or Flint. I can only imagine if you did that for all the Farmers. I don't want to belabor it any further - I was just suggesting a light summary should be about as in depth as you guys should get (in your current format).

Part of the reason there was a bit more pausing in this episode is I was remote, and they were in a room together, so there were a few more "is Kevin going to talk now" breaks than there would be otherwise.

Sorry for ruining the cast :(

Slothrop likes this

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10 minutes ago, Frostmane said:

Sorry for ruining the cast :(

Unacceptable behavior, frankly

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I demand a pro-rated refund for all the dead airtime.

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2 hours ago, RedSam said:

I demand a pro-rated refund for all the dead airtime.

I've got your refund right here *points down.... at a small pile of coins of various denominations*

tehlon and Ranthoron like this

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