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MarkM

vs Fish

I've been playing Hunters with the Moon extra's for 3 months now and can do OK against most teams.

My 9 includes both Captains, and I vacillate between Minx and A&G for the Union slot.

I can kick off with Skatha & usually retrieve and score - and then she's out of the game for a while. But they just score right back. T2 Shark legendaries and they score 1 or 2 more - game over. 

I can't seem to protect the ball vs them and 6 takeouts takes too long - it's over before I've done 2 or 3!

So I seem to auto lose to Shark Fish.  Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

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I main Brewers, and I'm even shelving them for the time being against Fish.  My Fish strategy atm is to make sure I have a good beer nearby so at least I'm enjoying the game.

Hunters are in an even worse position with far less 2'' melee than Brewers have, who have less than Fish.  In fact, the Hunters melee range averages across the Guild at 1.29 vs. the Fishermen's 1.78 as of Season 2.  This is further exacerbated by the fact that 75% of the new Hunters are 1'' melee, and the new Fisherman (Hag) is still 2''.  In short, you won't get any counter attacks or be able to engage with anyone but a Hearne and Seenah, and Seenah will struggle to ever get a charge off since the Fish can casually engage him.  He might get it sometimes but it's going to be difficult.

Your best bet is hiding the ball and going for 4 take outs.  Maybe if you can score first turn of the game, let the fish counterscore, go for 2 more kills and then score the final 4 you need, that's not a horrible plan either.  But for a period of the game, you have to hide the ball, and this is where the Hunters really struggle in this matchup IMO, moreso than Hunters struggle regardless.

Most of your models won't be counterattacking.  Seenah, and Hearne.  Seenah is 2/1, so is probably not the best bet, but Hearne is 3/1, and not much better. Hearne1's tackle is on 4, KD on 3. Hearne2 has a Tackle on 2, as well as a KD.  So at least his counter attack is a little dangerous, but against 1st column tackles on Fish, it just means that they're hitting you twice.  

So now you're looking at the High DEF options, and this might be the best avenue.  Zarola, Skatha and Fahad all have DEF5, but better yet, Fahad has Nimble for DEF6 (Which can be activated by Last Light from Hearne2 if needed) and even better, has a 1/4 kick.  At a 6/8, he's reasonably fast, but Shark can probably still catch him.  The kicker is that Siren is going to struggle against him.  She has to hit the 6 on Seduce, and be within 4'' to receive the kick, or more than likely, within 8'' for Fahad to walk up to her where she needs 3 6s to tackle the ball away from him.

I'm not an expert player, but Fahad seems like the best choice to hide the ball.  He can't go within 8'' of the board edge anywhere near Jac, or Kraken either but he's still reasonably quick, difficult to seduce, and seems like the best way to make them work for the ball.

This still leaves you in a position where you have to make 12 pts, so that sucks but still.  If you can hide the ball, you probably win.  Eventually.  Chaska, Hearne2 and Jaecar putting the hurt on things while Ulfr and Skatha score goals.  And that's the other thing, even after Fahad has activated, Skatha can dodge him another 4'' with a snowball if his position is getting endangered.

Hunters are low on the power scale, lowest even, and Fish are at the top, tied or right behind Alchemists. It's going to be a rough game regardless.

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I find skatha can be a decent counter to the shark legendary.  If you wait out skatha activation till after the legendary then snowball and fast ground cam pull you far enough out of the legendary to engage someone and start building momentum. I find the bear very crucial in the fish match up. Kds are key to actually pinning models down so they can't use their decent counter attacks to unengage our 1 inch models. It's a hard match up but I've pulled myself through it for a victory.  Also spread out and try as hard as you can to not let the legendary hit your whole team. 

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On 5/6/2017 at 1:04 PM, Jrcitizen said:

 I find the bear very crucial in the fish match up. 

Really? I find that very interesting.  Usually shark is quite happy to have a guaranteed Tidal Surge charge target and the Corsair list is able to keep him forever engaged, KD, Dread Gaze, more fair and balanced stuff.....

Yeah as a Fish player I'm not usually upset to see Seenah in my experience.  How are you using him into this matchup? I don't get to to play against a ton of hunters and I'm wondering if you've got a strategy I haven't seen in my meta yet. 

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Um Fish are are a little broken right now with the Sirens and the two best captains in the game and the only goddamn team with all 2" melee (which is ridiculous), so it can be a frustrating game. I have played into both and my strategy for Corsair is usually shove the bear into his throat because Corsair wastes time on her and she can be annoying for him. I personally am veering towards Theron being the Fish pick. He can do annoying things to Fish. I can't decide if I like Seenah here - I think 2" KD is great but Seenah is a liability into Shark (who will take those dodges all the way to the bank). I think you want as high Def as you can. So captain dependent. 

I can't decide if the Fast Ground isn't an even worse liability against a team already fast. I need to play that more, but my gut feeling is Theron's Pinned is going to be worth more. I like both Hearne's into this matchup, Hearne1 for teleport to get around legendary and Hearne2 for easy KD.

Hmmm...not very helpful - I need more practice, I'll tell you after the weekend at Vengeance...

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58 minutes ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

The issue is you need Theron's pinned against Hi-def models, and the turns you miss that roll, you're hosed.

there basically all 4s. that's just average I think.

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It will definitely happen (happened to me) - dice happen. But it might still be the best play. I'm just not sold on the Skatha 'score quicker than you' vs Fish.

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With two inch reach from the fish and only THREE models that can be on the pitch with KD (Both captains). Corsair being column 2.

 

Then perhaps, just perhaps Snow maybe better than Fahad, to get that 1" dodge out of the 2" melee. 

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58 minutes ago, kegslayer13 said:

there basically all 4s. that's just average I think.

Only when you're factoring everyone.  I'm not shooting everyone.  I'm shooting Shark, the Sirens, and trying to keep Greyscale from scoring.  

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1 hour ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

Only when you're factoring everyone.  I'm not shooting everyone.  I'm shooting Shark, the Sirens, and trying to keep Greyscale from scoring.  

shark, the sirens, greyscales, and sakana are all 4s naturally. I think one of the sirens has charmed so she's a 5 all the time vs the shot I  guess but the rest of them are totally 4's on a 3 dice play.

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9 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Um Fish are are a little broken right now with the Sirens and the two best captains in the game and the only goddamn team with all 2" melee (which is ridiculous), so it can be a frustrating game.

Midas would like a word.

As a Fish player, generally don't bring Skatha, at least against Shark. When I run Shark especially, I want you to make a goal or two against me, because I can rocket a shot right back, and I'm confident enough against Hunters that whether you get the goal first or not is mostly immaterial.

Best way to go about shutting me down is to look at what paths I have to the ball, or if I have the ball what paths I have to the goal, and shut them down. Now I admit that's easier said than done in some cases, but the Fish gameplan is very linear in that I will always, always be looking for the most efficient route to a goal, and nothing else. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also: the longer the game goes, the worse it gets for Shark Fish. Shark Fish put out little to no damage, so if you can keep the ball off of the strikers for a turn or two you can start getting an activation advantage.

Corsair's hard because the control that Theron does doesn't really phase him much, and Skatha's a frail waif that wants to be upfield right where Corsair'll have his Scrum. I think you use Theron to peel models off of the scrum and screw with the Drags on the team, then send in fast, hardhitting models like Jaecar to do some damage to the outer layer of the scrum, or the model you peeled off, and then retreat, but I'm not sure - that might result in some dead Hunters. Corsair doesn't like being KD'd, but I think only Brewers, Engineers, and the mirror have the volume of KD necessary to mitigate the scrumming Corsair likes to do (and to get around Sturdy).

EDIT: Maybe you could use Skatha backfield as a support piece for your team's mobility? The frost tokens only work for one turn though, that'd be some clutch tech against Corsair Fish if you could use them more often.

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13 hours ago, Siberys said:

Midas would like a word.

As a Fish player, generally don't bring Skatha, at least against Shark. When I run Shark especially, I want you to make a goal or two against me, because I can rocket a shot right back, and I'm confident enough against Hunters that whether you get the goal first or not is mostly immaterial.

Best way to go about shutting me down is to look at what paths I have to the ball, or if I have the ball what paths I have to the goal, and shut them down. Now I admit that's easier said than done in some cases, but the Fish gameplan is very linear in that I will always, always be looking for the most efficient route to a goal, and nothing else. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also: the longer the game goes, the worse it gets for Shark Fish. Shark Fish put out little to no damage, so if you can keep the ball off of the strikers for a turn or two you can start getting an activation advantage.

Corsair's hard because the control that Theron does doesn't really phase him much, and Skatha's a frail waif that wants to be upfield right where Corsair'll have his Scrum. I think you use Theron to peel models off of the scrum and screw with the Drags on the team, then send in fast, hardhitting models like Jaecar to do some damage to the outer layer of the scrum, or the model you peeled off, and then retreat, but I'm not sure - that might result in some dead Hunters. Corsair doesn't like being KD'd, but I think only Brewers, Engineers, and the mirror have the volume of KD necessary to mitigate the scrumming Corsair likes to do (and to get around Sturdy).

EDIT: Maybe you could use Skatha backfield as a support piece for your team's mobility? The frost tokens only work for one turn though, that'd be some clutch tech against Corsair Fish if you could use them more often.

How do you "peel a model off" with theron? every time i've played the match up corsair just drags whoever he wants, and if theron tries to stop him w/ pin he just drags theron and the team surrounds and farms theron to death

Corsair can only be KD'd reliably by vHearne really, and vHearne drops like a rock to the normal murder mob.

imo dropping corsair into hunters is far more brutal than shark -- skatha sucks at retrieving the ball at her low TAC into close control models with 2" melee and dread gaze, and theron can't outfight them

due to the new blind captain pick rules - i think fish will skew towards the safer pick of corsair rather than gambling on a skatha (who shark can easily outfootball) whereas theron is kinda annoying if he pins shark

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7 hours ago, Napoleon said:

How do you "peel a model off" with theron? every time i've played the match up corsair just drags whoever he wants, and if theron tries to stop him w/ pin he just drags theron and the team surrounds and farms theron to death

Corsair can only be KD'd reliably by vHearne really, and vHearne drops like a rock to the normal murder mob.

imo dropping corsair into hunters is far more brutal than shark -- skatha sucks at retrieving the ball at her low TAC into close control models with 2" melee and dread gaze, and theron can't outfight them

due to the new blind captain pick rules - i think fish will skew towards the safer pick of corsair rather than gambling on a skatha (who shark can easily outfootball) whereas theron is kinda annoying if he pins shark

I think Theron is the Captain of choice vs Fishermen in general, but Corsair feels like a rough match. I think theoretically, slowing him down with  snare and making use of Theron's forest to block line of sight from Snare targets is pretty much the best you can manage, but Fishermen still have options that could make escape very hard - Siren 1 and Hag for example mean that you can potentially grab players from quite far out. I think I'd take Hearne and Seenah as 2" melee players and just try and concentrate on bringing a player down at a time and disrupting his formation... if you can take Corsair out, I think it becomes a lot easier, but that is easier said than done...

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On reflection. "peel" probably isn't the right word barring particular circumstances (which I'll touch on below).

My normal Corsair list is Corsair, [Salt | Tentacles], Greyscales, Sakana, VSiren, [Jac | Avarisse & Greede].

The core of the scrum is Corsair and either Jac or Avarisse. In all three cases, they have Tough Hide and easy access to KDs, but low defenses. You're bound to lose guys to the scrum, so I think what you do is feed it low-value but high-defense models with easy access to dodges - Fahad and Zarola are the first that come to my mind, but I don't really play Hunters much so take that with a grain of salt. Try to get some momentum out of the scrum and keep the boys occupied.

The next group is the "Outer Scrum", which is composed of Tentacles (if present), VSiren, and Sakana. Greede may also be here if I'm planning to try for a goal with Avarisse, but that's dangerous. These models stay in the scrum for support and their melee zones, but are also able to jump ship for things like ball retrieval and goals, or they're more fragile than the center-scrum. This is where you want to hit if you can; fringe models you can punch and jump away from *may* give the Hunters a good target for hit-and-run tactics. You need to mind Drag (including the possibility of Corsair moving to extend it), but if you keep feeding him other targets (and keep your guys away when it's not their activation) your harrassers are probably more trouble to pin down than they're worth - Corsair may risk breaking up the scrum if he pursues too aggressively, and the fish need that crowd-out bubble wrap.

The final group is non-scrum models. These are Salt, Greyscales, and depending on the game-state possibly Sakana or Greede. These are the most vulnerable models, though largely they're also poor targets (Salt) or have a lot of defensive tech (Greyscales). If you're carful about going after these guys I think they're your best bet for killing-points, and you have to deal with them anyways because they'll be playing the ball - Corsair Fish are still Fish, after all.

"Peeling" is just careful use of Pinned. In particular, watch VSiren, Sakana, Greyscales, and possibly Avarisse & Greede. These models either want to charge (VSiren, Avarisse) or are goal threats (everyone else). Most of the time the Fish player will just leave them in place if you pin them (unless Theron is nearish the goal, or nearish someone the Fish could maybe pass to). That's a solid delaying tactic though, and might force a model to stay or move into a more vulnerable position or keep Dread Gaze out of the scrum or something. Hit and run, harry the weak and sick of the herd, et cetera.

Hunters into Corsair seems like it's an especially position-reliant game, in a team that's already very positiony, but I do think there's plenty of stuff the Hunters can try for.

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Had a game against Corsair. Still hate him.

Admittedly I brought the completely wrong tools to the fight.

Skatha, Snaow, Ulfr, Jeacar, Zarola and vHearne (so still trying the new toys, only my second game with) Against Corsair, Tentacles, Greyscales, Sakana, Hag and A&G.

I stupidly let him set up a T1 goal with A&G simply because I haven't seen it happen to know how it works (So lesson learned) but it did allow me to finally get the ball! (which I really wanted but got denied the receive)

My thought was to dance around the inevitable Mosh Pit that Corsair is infamous for. BUT my chance at a double goal was denied with Jeacar missing a POINT BLANK goal with a total of 4 on 2 dice..... Sums the game up, really.

As much as I've learned a lot from these forums I've had little chance to put any into practice (first game since my studying so expected to still make dumb mistakes) and I'm sure many are already saying "Why did you take Ulfr AND Jeacar". I dunno, I know they both want full INF to get anything done and this team isn't going to do it. Zarola was a last minute include and I dunno why, I don't think you need that much speed to get around. I could try and argue it was to make sure those who didn't want to get dragged get shunted out.

I got Tentacles so it wasn't a board less game lol but yeah despite joking "Operation: send one guy in at a time" sadly ended up that way like it or not. Jeacar continues to disappoint me, which is really an odd feeling (and i don't mean because he can't kick a ball, I took a gamble on a 2 dice 3 shot) considering his praise here. I also denied myself 2 points killing Greede. I keep thinking for some reason he works like Brainpan... I have NO CLUE WHY lol

Anyway ramble over, was a fun match regardless and my training continues.

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I take Ulfr and Jaecar all the time. Yeah, they can soak INF, but you assign based on board situation - are you planning to score, load Ulfr, if planning for DMG, Jaecar.

 

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I've not had much mileage out of Ulfr either but early doors, sadly can say that about most Hunters bar a select few but thats skill than them :D

Still don't like Snow (rules wise). I mean Corsair is just as good as KD as hitting but I feel if you take Snow, KD will happen so negates him, Ooh Ball will likely not net you a ball and giving him 1 INF is 1 more than I need to give Fahad. So dunno, like the rest only second game in (and annoyingly very spaced apart) so still get some held back judgement.

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I look at Feral Instincts as a reliability boost - like confidence. On Seenah it's very good. Also useful for the captains. It does cost a bit and yeah I wish it had been AP + Free bonus time but...we work with what we have. Pack Mentality will be useful against models not KDd but yes into Fish Fahad is a better pick.

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I am new but ad good success with the following list last night vs fish.

 

theron, snow, seenah, chaska, egret, jaecar  

my opponent played: shark, salt, jac, greyscales, hag, siren1.

 

Between thyron pinning/ snaring 1-2 peeps a turn, using forest to protect ball carrier from siren. Jaecar would wail on some poor fishermen then lay a trap next to someone like greyscale, shark or salt.  and chaska got the ball after his 1st goal and hit in a section that it was hard for him to get too while trapping up.  Seenah ended up being mvp killing shark (bear hug) and throwing siren out twice. and jaecar up being a close 2nd by kill killing hag, greyscales and salt.

 

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I feel like Skatha's fast ground AOE is a huge liability against Fish. The two skews for fish (speed/scoring or toughhide/tank), lots of 2", long threats are just a nightmare for Hunters. If you were going to design a team to explain all of the Hunters' weaknesses it would be pretty close to what Fish bring.

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