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TwistedCarnage

How are People Liking it so far

105 posts in this topic
On 13.5.2017 at 2:41 PM, KaiinRetsu said:

Edit: I am wrong on that, in the push rules it says they all get moved right away. 

So you play the game wrong (normal encounters and boss encounters). ;) Now, play with only two heroes and with correct rules and we will see if it is still balanced. :P:D

@squirtis

Dying is not bad, losing is not bad, but it is boring if you fail because you items are crap. It is boring to grind the same encounters. You don't fail because you have a bad strategy, a wrong movement, you often fail because you have no luck (treasure cards, item deck). And that is not like the videogame!

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8 minutes ago, Vegomantis said:

@squirtis

Dying is not bad, losing is not bad, but it is boring if you fail because you items are crap. It is boring to grind the same encounters. You don't fail because you have a bad strategy, a wrong movement, you often fail because you have no luck (treasure cards, item deck). And that is not like the videogame!

I second that notion.

I want to die, bacause I (or my team mates) made a mistake and learn from it. That is fun to me.

Drawing random treasures to kit out my character differently everytime is fun, but not being able to equip any at all, or only after going through the same encounter 2-4 times, just isn't.

Now, I don't mind doing an encounter again, if it was a close call the first time and want to try a different strategy next time, but especially with the earlier encounters, that just often isn't the case.

 

And this is where house ruling comes into play. I want to keep all the fun parts without having to suffer too much through the boring/unfun parts.

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I played an honest, as-written two-player game... and it took upwards of six hours, because we had bad RNG. (No good starting treasures, Sentinel's Wrath as the first level 2 encounter, Pit of the Dead as the first level 3 encounter). I will say that getting slaughtered by basic enemies, then eking out a victory, then dying to the boss, then beating the boss feels a lot like Dark Souls, but it's not a process that translates well into a board game, because each iteration is much slower. It's night and day with the house rules, which give you just the "skin of my teeth victory" experience the whole time.

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2 hours ago, Vegomantis said:

So you play the game wrong (normal encounters and boss encounters). ;) Now, play with only two heroes and with correct rules and we will see if it is still balanced. :P:D

@squirtis

Dying is not bad, losing is not bad, but it is boring if you fail because you items are crap. It is boring to grind the same encounters. You don't fail because you have a bad strategy, a wrong movement, you often fail because you have no luck (treasure cards, item deck). And that is not like the videogame!

Actually, I still played the boss correctly, just the only fight I did wrong was the sentinel I faught.  The way I faught it was harder than the core rules, because with the core rules, I could have made it so only one person gets attacked each round, compared to the normal 2 that got hit in my game.  So I still dont think that would affect my opinion.

 

You should check out the broken down chances of odds of getting a card that works for your team that costs less than 8 souls.  It is actually quite high.  I don't see why I would want to test it out with 2 characters though, when my group play will be with 3.  The game is designed to be played 1-4.  Of course having more will make the game easier.  Maybe everyone here should strive to find more friends to play with?  I only played solo with 3 characters to test out the game and figure out the rules, so once we can set up a night to play, we can actually play.

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2 hours ago, KaiinRetsu said:

Actually, I still played the boss correctly, just the only fight I did wrong was the sentinel I faught.  The way I faught it was harder than the core rules, because with the core rules, I could have made it so only one person gets attacked each round, compared to the normal 2 that got hit in my game.  So I still dont think that would affect my opinion.

 

You should check out the broken down chances of odds of getting a card that works for your team that costs less than 8 souls.  It is actually quite high.  I don't see why I would want to test it out with 2 characters though, when my group play will be with 3.  The game is designed to be played 1-4.  Of course having more will make the game easier.  Maybe everyone here should strive to find more friends to play with?  I only played solo with 3 characters to test out the game and figure out the rules, so once we can set up a night to play, we can actually play.

Striving to find more friends is really not going to work for or help everyone lol

If you like the rules as written, great! It is good to know that the game is indeed fun and enjoyable withouy house rules haha :)

Personally my goal is to play the videogame Dark Souls as a boardgame, with the two experiences being as close as possible, and so in that sense there are a number of ways in which the board game does stuff quite differently from the videogame. Randomization being one thing. So for me it is a fun exercise seeing what ways I can make a little change here or there to get closer to the videogame :)

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2 hours ago, stargorger said:

Personally my goal is to play the videogame Dark Souls as a boardgame, with the two experiences being as close as possible, and so in that sense there are a number of ways in which the board game does stuff quite differently from the videogame. Randomization being one thing. So for me it is a fun exercise seeing what ways I can make a little change here or there to get closer to the videogame :)

See, that is a perfectly understandable and good reason to house rule it.  I won't lie, my friends and I will probably house rule at least skipping an encounter if we can finish it in a couple moves with no danger, only to save on time.  However, everyone else is saying that the game 'needs' to be house ruled to be playable and enjoyable.  I am a table top gamer, with a lot of different types of games under my belt.  As far as a table top game goes, I find Dark Souls to be very well balanced and sufficiently challenging.

 

Maybe it does not emulate the video game directly, but it is not a video game, so I am okay with that.  To top it off, out of my group of people, I'm the only one who has ever played a Dark Souls video game, and I've only played 1 and some of 2(Also some of Demon Souls, since that is pretty much the precursor).  I backed this game because it looked like a great table top game, also I always loved the theme of Dark Souls.  I am not attached to the concept of playing the video game on my table at all.

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3 hours ago, KaiinRetsu said:

 

Exactly :)

My wife for example has watched me play a bit but doesnt care about the games...on the other hand, Ive told her from the start the house rules I want to implement, so she has no preconceived idea of how to play hehe ;)

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It is certainly gear dependent (so is the video game) but there is also a definitive skill element to it, the likes of which I'm not sure I've encountered in a board game before other than the abstract greats like Chess and Go. Despite what all the marketing and memes tell you, Dark Souls is not about being hard. It's about the feeling of accomplishment players get by conquering that difficulty. When my group finally overcame the Gargoyle after taking a demoralizing death to him before the feeling of hopelessness that transformed into immense satisfaction felt exactly like what I get from playing the video games. The rest of my group cannot play the video games, and so finally being able to actually share that feeling with them was wonderful. The moves that killed us became top priority to keep track of in the next attempt and consequently never hit us again, resulting in victory.

Part of that satisfaction comes not just from the bosses, but by revisiting and "grinding" the encounters. I can see individual encounters becoming tedious after multiple playthroughs, much like the video game. However it's only by "grinding" the encounters that players get to see firsthand how much stronger their new gear and knowledge has made them, revealing just how tactical and complicated the game can get even with such relatively simple rules. I think it's a shame that so many reviewers and players are totally averse to all encounter revisiting because I feel they're robbing themselves of that small satisfaction. No wonder they tend to have a more negative opinion of the game than others. I would too were it not for those constant small feelings of achievement. 

I'm really enjoying what I've been able to play so far and I'm having so much fun that I've already made sure to make the time to play it more than most games in my collection. It's not perfect. I have a few ideas that I'd like to test out and I think the campaign could use more narrative flair. But I believe the core rules already very much capture something that is very important to the feel of Souls: the feeling of satisfaction gained from overcoming difficulty.  

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take the randomness out of the equipment deck and the game becomes far more interesting, as I stated in another thread we use a fairly large "shop" size of treasure cards to plan our builds, and I find it vastly improves play.

here's the benefits as I see them,

1) you never get draw screwed

2) if you die due to being unequipped you feel like you just need to win 2 or 3 more fights to use that big sword in the shop, rather then feeling like your draws were shit and that's why you are losing.

3) you can plan your builds around what is in the shop. this was a point of contention in the other threads since the counter argument was that players could just do the optimal build every time if the good weapons showed up but personally if that's what you want to do I think you should be able to, but for me I see it as having the choice to build as you want, and experiment with different team compositions.

4) less grinding...nothing is more frustrating then a failed run where you spent sould on nothing but equipment because you couldn't draw anything useful from the deck. well this aspect of the grind is removed and I find you can usually complete a mini or major boss on average 1 run quicker, not because it's easier or harder but because the random nature of getting your equipment is removed.

 

the way we currently play is 30 card shop, with 3 souls per equip 6 for tier 2 an legendary gear on boss runs. contemplating 4/8 though

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@calisk 

I definitely agree with point 3. Again, as my goal is to mimic the videogame as closely as possible, I feel like the randomization stops players from coming up with builds tailored to a certain gear set, which IMO is half the fun of the videogame. For that reason, eliminating gear randomization as much as possible is my goal.

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Played a regular round with my brother yesterday.

Got lucky and drew a powerful weapon and armour for him early on, while I was mostly there to absorb magic damage if possible.

Of course that lead to grinding the early encounters to be able to equip these items, which in turn started getting repetitive and after he was able to equip them, this in turn trivialised a lot of the following encounters as he could just tank anything, since most enemies only deal physical damage.

First time facing off against the dancer, and I feel like, depending on which cards you draw and in which order, she can be a real hit or miss boss, since she often doesn't focus on a certain player and just wanders around the area.

 

16 hours ago, stargorger said:

@calisk 

I definitely agree with point 3. Again, as my goal is to mimic the videogame as closely as possible, I feel like the randomization stops players from coming up with builds tailored to a certain gear set, which IMO is half the fun of the videogame. For that reason, eliminating gear randomization as much as possible is my goal.

I like at least some random elements in my games. I mean, we didn't know where every item was hidden in our first playthrough of the videogames either, right?

And my examlpe above is why I still find the tiered decks to be the most effective house rule, for me at least. There's still variety, there's still randomness, but also a semblance of balance. Which builds you can create during this certain playthrough stil relies on luck, but you don't have to grind for it or have it delivered to you on a silver plate. :P

 

If I wanted to play a session with a specific build in mind anyway, I might just grab start the game with that gear anyway and slowly equip it as I level up.

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An interesting / funny idea:

There is a number for each Loot card.
Then you can look at the whole pile once
When buying Loot, you can take card X, where X is the number you announce.

So you get the kind of card you want, if you have noticed the place you can find it.

So this is like in the game, you know which object you can find where ..... but not exactly
  ;)

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37 minutes ago, Ragnara said:

Played a regular round with my brother yesterday.

Got lucky and drew a powerful weapon and armour for him early on, while I was mostly there to absorb magic damage if possible.

Of course that lead to grinding the early encounters to be able to equip these items, which in turn started getting repetitive and after he was able to equip them, this in turn trivialised a lot of the following encounters as he could just tank anything, since most enemies only deal physical damage.

First time facing off against the dancer, and I feel like, depending on which cards you draw and in which order, she can be a real hit or miss boss, since she often doesn't focus on a certain player and just wanders around the area.

 

I like at least some random elements in my games. I mean, we didn't know where every item was hidden in our first playthrough of the videogames either, right?

And my examlpe above is why I still find the tiered decks to be the most effective house rule, for me at least. There's still variety, there's still randomness, but also a semblance of balance. Which builds you can create during this certain playthrough stil relies on luck, but you don't have to grind for it or have it delivered to you on a silver plate. :P

 

If I wanted to play a session with a specific build in mind anyway, I might just grab start the game with that gear anyway and slowly equip it as I level up.

well to respond to this, what appears in the shop is random, i don't have the exact card count on inventory but i think it's somewhere in the 90+ range so i can't say you'd find anything reliably with a 30 card shop.

next treasure chests would still be random.

 

and past that some suggested a random drop from enemies idea in the other thread that would be great if you wanted to keep that random nature of things.

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6 minutes ago, calisk said:

well to respond to this, what appears in the shop is random, i don't have the exact card count on inventory but i think it's somewhere in the 90+ range so i can't say you'd find anything reliably with a 30 card shop.

next treasure chests would still be random.

 

and past that some suggested a random drop from enemies idea in the other thread that would be great if you wanted to keep that random nature of things.

I gotta say, having that many cards out up front gives the players a lot of strategic Options and ability to plan ahead.

But it also basically adds a whole new phase to the game (let's call it the "Tactics Phase") where you don't so much play the game but look over all the cards, wage your options and such and so on. And I feel like this could easily go out of hand or at least take up quite some time, but that might just not be my cup of tea. The reason I try to come up with house rules is to streamline the whole process and not add extra steps to it.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ragnara said:

I gotta say, having that many cards out up front gives the players a lot of strategic Options and ability to plan ahead.

But it also basically adds a whole new phase to the game (let's call it the "Tactics Phase") where you don't so much play the game but look over all the cards, wage your options and such and so on. And I feel like this could easily go out of hand or at least take up quite some time, but that might just not be my cup of tea. The reason I try to come up with house rules is to streamline the whole process and not add extra steps to it.

 

 

true but this phase happens anyway at least in my normal game.

around your third run I find players spend a ton of time digging through about an equally sized pile of inventory cards you've amassed trying to decide what to aim towards.

in our boss run on ornstein and smaug with normal rules our final run against them that we won we had around 45 inventory cards aside from our basic equipment which we spent a decent amount of time digging through each and every time we pulled more equipment, for example our warrior pulled armor that would need an int upgrade to use, then he dug through the pile of equipment to see if int would allow him to use anything else and discovers another shield that with two int boosts he could use that's better then his current that he disregarded before. this type of thing happens frequently in a normal game.

in our shop runs you are correct we spend some time initially discussing what we each want to aim for, but after that the only time we stopped to discuss anything was when we hit a treasure chest and pulled some random gear that changed the equation a little.

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1 minute ago, calisk said:

true but this phase happens anyway at least in my normal game.

around your third run I find players spend a ton of time digging through about an equally sized pile of inventory cards you've amassed trying to decide what to aim towards.

in our boss run on ornstein and smaug with normal rules our final run against them that we won we had around 45 inventory cards aside from our basic equipment.

Oh yeah, in my usual games this happens too. One reason why I'm trying to cut down on that. :P

 

I'm mostly into campain play anyway, so instead of hoarding everything, I'd often sell the unwanted gear to keep the inventory managable.

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I guess ill have to try out these different house rules a few times to see which works best, but I simply do not like the fact that they randomized loot so much. Sure, we didnt know where every piece of loot was on our first playthrough, but that doesnt make it random. The designers certainly knew lol. And once we did know, we could always go back and be assured of getting the same loot for our desired build again. I agree that Im not sure just handing specific items out all the time is ideal, but imo in contrast to the videogame the level of randomization currently is way too 'gamey'. I generally dislike games with high levels of randomization...I am a Chess guy, not a Yahtzee guy. But thats just me.

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I tried a few house rules balanced for a two player game over the last few days. These rules create a greater feeling of tension (as when you die it's game over), a reduced feeling of banging your head against the wall with your stats vs treasure, incentive to break barrels, and some hard decisions on how to spec and gear your character. A few notes: I tested Deck 1 several times, and balanced the soul gain for a 2 L1 and 2 L2 encounter setup. I have not tested Deck 2/L3 souls gained encounters.

- Deck 1 before the mid boss consists of the 5 class specific cards from both heroes and 16 cards (out of 32 total) randomly drawn from a deck made of any treasure with max stat 22 or lower. Included in this deck are the 4 upgrade cards with stat requirement 15, and 2 titanite shards, and 2 embers. This makes a deck of 26 cards, of which 16 are random.

- Deck 2 after the mid boss contsists of 5 transposed class specific cards from both heroes, 5 legendary cards, and 11 cards (out of 28 total) randomly drawn from a deck made of any treasure with max stat requirement higher than 22. Included in this deck are the 4 upgrade stat cards with requirement 25, and 2 titanite shards, and 2 embers. Discards the remainder of the previous deck, but keep any stored treasure cards you have.

- Level 1 encounters provide 9 souls, level 2 encounters provide 10 souls, level 3 encounters provide 11 souls.

- If there is a barrel in an encounter and you break it, immediately roll a die (L1 = black, L2 = Blue, L3 = Orange) and add that number of souls to your cache.

- Refreshing your luck costs one soul, or remove two stored treasure cards.

- Refreshing the estus flask for one player requires the removal of five stored treasure cards, it costs 10 treasure cards to restore for both players.

- There is no renewal of the once per spark ability.

- There are no sparks available for retries. When you die, it is game over.

I also made houserules for giving different enemies different soul drops, and it was balanced. However, it involved a lot of counting and slowed down the game without adding a lot to it. Overall, I found this to reduce playtime of the game, reduce accounting and tracking of too much treasure, eliminate the grind, add more thought provoking decisions, increase the sense of progression, and make the game more enjoyable without compromising difficulty.

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As far as my thoughts on the game. I have shelved it until the expansions come out. They took the word 'base' in 'base game' quite literally. There really isn't much content included in the base game. There are only a few pieces of gear with bleed and poison, none with frost, no need for magic defense, no enemies that hit with bleed or poison or frost, only one that hits with magic. Not a ton of variety in the gear available, not a lot of variety in monsters. The tiles have minimal terrain features so you could effectively play the game on one tile and not really tell much of a difference in how encounters feel.

I will enjoy this game a lot more when there are a wide variety of enemies and gear available. I don't want to need to defeat a boss in order to get a frost weapon. I would love to face a room where I risk poison, bleed, and magic attacks. Even with trap tokes, why do none of them poison, bleed or frost?

I think the skeletal structure of the game is good, but I don't think the game was playtested enough. The treasure system feels lazy. I am excited for more content, and rule refinement as time goes on, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to drop $100 on the base game unless they wanted some nice models to paint. The quality is great!

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@Joplick

I do like your idea of making use of the barrels, since they frequently hide things in the game. You might even consider letting them have a slight chance for Titanite or Embers in level 2/3 encounters.

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1 hour ago, Joplick said:

As far as my thoughts on the game. I have shelved it until the expansions come out. They took the word 'base' in 'base game' quite literally. There really isn't much content included in the base game. There are only a few pieces of gear with bleed and poison, none with frost, no need for magic defense, no enemies that hit with bleed or poison or frost, only one that hits with magic. Not a ton of variety in the gear available, not a lot of variety in monsters. The tiles have minimal terrain features so you could effectively play the game on one tile and not really tell much of a difference in how encounters feel.

I will enjoy this game a lot more when there are a wide variety of enemies and gear available. I don't want to need to defeat a boss in order to get a frost weapon. I would love to face a room where I risk poison, bleed, and magic attacks. Even with trap tokes, why do none of them poison, bleed or frost?

I think the skeletal structure of the game is good, but I don't think the game was playtested enough. The treasure system feels lazy. I am excited for more content, and rule refinement as time goes on, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to drop $100 on the base game unless they wanted some nice models to paint. The quality is great!

the two most disappointing parts of the game are the tiles and the base enemies. bosses and equipment are largely  fine by me.

the tiles have literally no interesting features to them, poison bogs that apply poison/bleed/frozen, death pits enemies could push you into, walls that could influence the flow of the fight preventing movement from some hexes to other hexes, anything to give some variety to the content and layout.

I was quite annoyed when I saw a shield that gave poison immunity but nothing in the game causes that I could see

as for enemies these are literally the most mundane of enemies possible, not one is more resistant to magic then physical,  none have any form of interesting tactic or attack pattern, and even the variety of them...6 enemies...that's just far too few....and 4 base classes is pretty minimal as well.

 

i've written that failing of the game off as i'm already aware and have the expansions coming that will rectify this issue to some degree I hope, but the base game is 150+ in my country....that's ridiculous for how minimal the content you get from it.

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After several standard playthoughs, my friend and I started our first campaign last night. We love the game. Campaign mode is significantly different and your best choice is to do a lot of grinding, but we've never found it boring to take down the same encounter again, and we both feel that the character progression is very rewarding. It could be that this game just happens to be right up our alley, but we've thoroughly enjoyed every bit of play so far! Thanks @Steamforged

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2 hours ago, Ashraam said:

@Joplick

I do like your idea of making use of the barrels, since they frequently hide things in the game. You might even consider letting them have a slight chance for Titanite or Embers in level 2/3 encounters.

The problem with the barrels as they stand is there is no incentive to break them, and a penalty to break them. They don't really get in the way, and are usually out of the way. I really enjoyed having them reward souls. It was like a mini game to figure out how to break the barrel during the battle without getting myself killed.

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2 hours ago, calisk said:

the two most disappointing parts of the game are the tiles and the base enemies. bosses and equipment are largely  fine by me.

the tiles have literally no interesting features to them, poison bogs that apply poison/bleed/frozen, death pits enemies could push you into, walls that could influence the flow of the fight preventing movement from some hexes to other hexes, anything to give some variety to the content and layout.

I was quite annoyed when I saw a shield that gave poison immunity but nothing in the game causes that I could see

as for enemies these are literally the most mundane of enemies possible, not one is more resistant to magic then physical,  none have any form of interesting tactic or attack pattern, and even the variety of them...6 enemies...that's just far too few....and 4 base classes is pretty minimal as well.

 

i've written that failing of the game off as i'm already aware and have the expansions coming that will rectify this issue to some degree I hope, but the base game is 150+ in my country....that's ridiculous for how minimal the content you get from it.

There was a lot they could have done with the tiles, definitely. That shield is one example of a teaser for an expansion. So is the frost knight's armor. So are the stagger tokens. So is the fact that they give you four tokens of each ailment without the chance that all four will be in play at once.

I agree with you about the bosses, they are excellent, and having a small amount of them doesn't actually feel like an issue for me as repeated plays against the same boss is very rewarding.

One remark about the treasure is the way the stats are I get the sense that they put the stat assignments according to the stats of all ten characters. There's just so much about the base set that points to expansion content. It makes it feel like the game is incomplete as is, which wouldn't be too bad except for the price. Whichever expansion that comes out that makes the game feel complete adds that much cost to have the whole game that a person would want. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they developed the content for all the planned expansions and the core game simultaneously and then just picked what to divide where. In one of Alex's interviews it is implied that he knew all 10 character's once per spark powers. And an early development screenshot showed prototypes of a lot more than 6 enemies.

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9 minutes ago, Joplick said:

The problem with the barrels as they stand is there is no incentive to break them, and a penalty to break them. They don't really get in the way, and are usually out of the way. I really enjoyed having them reward souls. It was like a mini game to figure out how to break the barrel during the battle without getting myself killed.

yea i dont understand the point of the barrels, really. they dont stop ranged LoS or do anything at all... and they are just auto destroyed by players who move on to the node, right? there's no extra stamina penalty if i remember right

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