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How are People Liking it so far

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41 minutes ago, Robyrt said:

and nobody ever disagrees on who should get the souls (yeah right).

Gotta say, this hasn't happened with either group I've played this with so far. 

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On 10.5.2017 at 9:09 PM, KaiinRetsu said:

 I don't understand why people think the cost of upgrading is too steep or the amount of souls is too low. 

Edit: Oh yeah, took just about 3 hours to set up and finish, while looking over rules.

Congratulations! ;) In most of my games i have only one treasure card and i played often with only two heroes. So the feeling of the game is a bit different! I'm not the only one who has experienced such a feeling – so i don't understand your playthrough experience and i wonder very much about your playing time. Maybe it's because you play alone with 3/4 heroes... ;)

 

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Does it translate the feeling of playing Dark Souls? OMG ayes it does!

 

One of two biggest highlights of my first game was dying twice in the row on the same room, for exactly the same reason ("oh yeah I can totally dodge this even though I don't have to"). Cause of death? Silver Knight bloody Bowman! If that does not ring an immediate bell in any Souls player, I don't know what will. It was my most keenly felt moment of "s**t, I AM playing Dark Souls".

Lessons learned after the first game:

- double the Souls income 2->4

-luck token now rerolls any number of dice when used. Otherwise, dodging is way too much of a gamble.

-first five cards of treasure deck are face up, forming a shop. Every time item is bought, new card is flipped to replace it. 

-Avelyn with blood gem is love, main reason why I was able to beat Dancer. Wish I had it earlier.

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1 hour ago, Vegomantis said:

Congratulations! ;) In most of my games i have only one treasure card and i played often with only two heroes. So the feeling of the game is a bit different! I'm not the only one who has experienced such a feeling – so i don't understand your playthrough experience and i wonder very much about your playing time. Maybe it's because you play alone with 3/4 heroes... ;)

 

I'll bring up my spreadsheet  this weekend and run some numbers. It 100% makes sense to me that loot is more useful in larger groups. As well as you having more souls to both make purchases and level up a character into stronger gear, there's also gear aimed more towards one class than another (masters attire: 8 souls to level into for the assassin, +15 for any other class)

 

But Im curious to see what odds are for some more in depth things which I did not cover in my last post, such as how many items cost +15 souls for each class, how many cards become useable after 8 or 16 souls for each class, and whether say, the warrior and assassin are more likely to have useable cards when paired up vs the knight and herald, etc.

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4 hours ago, Vegomantis said:

Congratulations! ;) In most of my games i have only one treasure card and i played often with only two heroes. So the feeling of the game is a bit different! I'm not the only one who has experienced such a feeling – so i don't understand your playthrough experience and i wonder very much about your playing time. Maybe it's because you play alone with 3/4 heroes... ;)

 

Like I said in my first post, it was to emulate the fact that I will mainly play this in a 3 man group.  I had to dig through quite a bit of stuff that I couldn't use, wasn't worth the cost in souls, or was already weaker than something I already equipped.  

 

I will explain the way my match went, and why it didn't seem like a useless grind.  I went through 1 encounter easy, second encounter I ran in to issues with a Silver Knight.  I rested at the bonfire, already having 4 items due to my 2 treasure chests happened to be in those encounters.  3 of those items I could not use, and I decided to draw cards using the few souls I would have left over if I upgraded for the 4th card.  Upon drawing, I found something better for the assassin, so I wouldn't end up with the -1 penalty on his base sword.  I also drew an upgrade card that gave him +1 instead, that fit his stats also.  This improved my damage right away, and I went back in to the encounters.

 

I ran through the same 2 encounters with ease, and then had a bit of an issue with a double crossbowman spawn on the 3rd encounter.  I didn't have good magical defense at all.  I survived, and pushed on to the last encounter, the 2nd level encounter.  Here I had a lot of issues and nearly died(against a single sentinel), but barely scraped by with one last attack from the assassin, and having spent my abilities, rerolls, and estus flasks to survive this battle, I returned with a full 24 souls to spend.  Again I drew until I found something worth equipping, then set those souls aside and continued to draw looking for better or other useful items.  At this point, I had upgraded armor for my Knight and luckily a heavy damaging weapon for my Warrior.

 

Again I set out, in the same order of rooms, and I cleared them very efficiently.  My knight was capable of doing 5 damage to the sentinel in one turn, even after his defense.  Now I felt brave enough to head through the fog gate, but decided to go back and look for more upgrade cards.  I found better armors and a better weapon for the Knight.  Then challenging the Gargoyle, we barely won by a good hit from the warrior, who would have died no matter what on the next attack from Gargoyle.

 

This progression was very smooth, and felt very rewarding.  I felt challenged, then overcame those challenges in order.  I can imagine that some people will not get the luck that I had in some of my draws, but that is what tabletop gaming is like.  Sometimes you get lucky on a deck or your rolls, some times you don't.  You should see the deck size when we play Zombicide, good luck getting good draws from that deck...  The fact of the matter is, I maybe went through about 1/3 of the deck, just going against the miniboss.  You are bound to find something in 1/3 of the deck.

 

I am rebuilding the characters as they were:

Assassin Equipment - Murakumo(titanite shard), Master's Attire, and Eastern Iron Shield(I forgot about that shield, I guess I had no original equipment...)

Assassin Stats - Dexterity Tier 2, Intelligence Tier 1

 

Warrior Equipment - Greataxe(Sharp Gem), Firelink Armour

Warrior Stats - Strength Tier 2, Dexterity Tier 2, Intelligence Tier 1

 

Knight Equipment - Broadsword, Lothric Knight Armour, Silver Eagle Kite Shield

Knight Stats - Strength Tier 2, Dexterity Tier 2, Faith Tier 1

 

I spent 36 souls on stats, that leaves 24 for items.  There are 60 common items and 15 class specific, almost exactly 1/3 of the deck.  I don't see how people can think this progression is not proper.  I still should have to go against the main boss.  The stat increases start costing more, but if you feel like a god every play through, it will get boring.

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Played my first game with four players.  Was not particularly happy with the result.  Took about 60 minutes for the first two rooms (admittedly we were new, but that also did not include setup).

Mini-boss: Titanite Demon.

First room, easy encounter.  No damage taken. +8 souls

Drew four cards from treasure deck, nothing usable.  Upgraded two characters stats towards them, but still basically stuck in starting equipment.

Second room, Medium encounter:  One Sentinel.  Managed to do 1 damage to him through his 2 defense before he smashed us (6 area damage).

After dying we had a collective "huh?!" and stopped playing.  Between the randomness of dice and the randomness of the store it did not seem like there was a path to victory no matter what we did as a party.  Perhaps we could have burned another spark and cleared the first room twice more?  But then we'd have nothing left for all of the rest of the rooms up to the miniboss.

 

The easy encounter was too easy, and the medium seemed far too difficult (sentinel with area damage, 10 health, 2 def against a starting party?!).  Perhaps there's a good strategy for him, but he has a range of 1 so you'd really have to spend a lot of stamina moving to try and stay out of range.

 

House rules to fix the randomness seem like a must in either the store or the combat or both.  

My thoughts:

- Estus and Luck can be used once per encounter instead of once per spark

- Store has 4 items face up for purchase (cost 2), or draw from deck (cost 1)

- 8 starting souls to spend (independent of player count)

- 2/3/4 Souls per player based on encounter difficulty

 

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14 minutes ago, Cylon said:

Played my first game with four players.  Was not particularly happy with the result.  Took about 60 minutes for the first two rooms (admittedly we were new, but that also did not include setup).

Mini-boss: Titanite Demon.

First room, easy encounter.  No damage taken. +8 souls

Drew four cards from treasure deck, nothing usable.  Upgraded two characters stats towards them, but still basically stuck in starting equipment.

Second room, Medium encounter:  One Sentinel.  Managed to do 1 damage to him through his 2 defense before he smashed us (6 area damage).

After dying we had a collective "huh?!" and stopped playing.  Between the randomness of dice and the randomness of the store it did not seem like there was a path to victory no matter what we did as a party.  Perhaps we could have burned another spark and cleared the first room twice more?  But then we'd have nothing left for all of the rest of the rooms up to the miniboss.

 

The easy encounter was too easy, and the medium seemed far too difficult (sentinel with area damage, 10 health, 2 def against a starting party?!).  Perhaps there's a good strategy for him, but he has a range of 1 so you'd really have to spend a lot of stamina moving to try and stay out of range.

 

House rules to fix the randomness seem like a must in either the store or the combat or both.  

My thoughts:

- Estus and Luck can be used once per encounter instead of once per spark

- Store has 4 items face up for purchase (cost 2), or draw from deck (cost 1)

- 8 starting souls to spend (independent of player count)

- 2/3/4 Souls per player based on encounter difficulty

 

Couldn't you have gone back to the blacksmith and bought 4 pieces of extra treasure and only upgrade 2 stats for 2 players? I haven't yet played, but it seems like, to me, people are underestimating the value of buying treasure. You could spend all 8 and have items at your disposal. it just seems like after the first two easy encounters you're going to need something better for the harder stuff and stats ain't gonna do shit for you. i dont know, maybe i should just shut up since i haven't had a game yet. 

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Just now, squirtis said:

Couldn't you have gone back to the blacksmith and bought 4 pieces of extra treasure and only upgrade 2 stats for 2 players? I haven't yet played, but it seems like, to me, people are underestimating the value of buying treasure. You could spend all 8 and have items at your disposal. it just seems like after the first two easy encounters you're going to need something better for the harder stuff and stats ain't gonna do shit for you. i dont know, maybe i should just shut up since i haven't had a game yet. 

 

We stopped after dying, perhaps the second round through the easy room (+8 more souls) would have gotten someone something decent.  It seems like most of the equipment in the treasure deck needs at least T1 or T2 upgrades to use.  

For instance the Murakumo sword requires T2 in dex and T1 in int for the assassin to equip.  8 total souls for just one weapon on one character in a four player game.  So if we had bank the easy encounter twice (16 souls), that's half of the total haul for one upgrade.  And a relatively minor one in terms of damage output.

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1 minute ago, Cylon said:

 

We stopped after dying, perhaps the second round through the easy room (+8 more souls) would have gotten someone something decent.  It seems like most of the equipment in the treasure deck needs at least T1 or T2 upgrades to use.  

For instance the Murakumo sword requires T2 in dex and T1 in int for the assassin to equip.  8 total souls for just one weapon on one character in a four player game.  So if we had bank the easy encounter twice (16 souls), that's half of the total haul for one upgrade.  And a relatively minor one in terms of damage output.

it seems like a armor upgrade that helped with dodge could be good against an easy to dodge enemy...

i guess right now, i just feel like strategy is the key since this is dark souls. if i stopped playing the video game after i died, like many many people probably did, then yea the game isn't going to be fun at all. you're going to die for sure, and learning all the strats will probably take some time. but many times your'e going to have to die first in order to know what to expect, so i just think dying is a part of the game - a built in mechanic. a lot of people hated the video game for this reason, too, not enough reward for the effort they put in. again, i understand that my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt until i actually get to play a few games and judge for myself. 

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5 minutes ago, squirtis said:

it seems like a armor upgrade that helped with dodge could be good against an easy to dodge enemy...

i guess right now, i just feel like strategy is the key since this is dark souls. if i stopped playing the video game after i died, like many many people probably did, then yea the game isn't going to be fun at all. you're going to die for sure, and learning all the strats will probably take some time. but many times your'e going to have to die first in order to know what to expect, so i just think dying is a part of the game - a built in mechanic. a lot of people hated the video game for this reason, too, not enough reward for the effort they put in. again, i understand that my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt until i actually get to play a few games and judge for myself. 

I'd certainly like it to be much more about strategy than luck.  I'll be giving it a few more attempts to see if it sticks, probably against the Gargoyles next time as that's a 3 easy 1 med setup.  

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11 minutes ago, Cylon said:

I'd certainly like it to be much more about strategy than luck.  I'll be giving it a few more attempts to see if it sticks, probably against the Gargoyles next time as that's a 3 easy 1 med setup.  

Yea i'm going to try gargoyle first i think, plus he's my fav model. 

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4 minutes ago, Cylon said:

I'd certainly like it to be much more about strategy than luck.  I'll be giving it a few more attempts to see if it sticks, probably against the Gargoyles next time as that's a 3 easy 1 med setup.  

Definitely try it again.  Very little equipment is needed to deal with enemies like the Sentinel, but it is still difficult with lower equipment.  Definitely get used to the games mechanics on easier mini-bosses.  I managed to beat the Sentinel with 3 players, with only a couple pieces of gear.  

 

Also, you say he hit you for 6 area damage.  Assassin should be dodging, and it does suck if he misses it, the knight and warrior should be able to take some of it down, not sure about the herald's starting equipment.  That being said, why were you all on the same node?  You know who he is going to attack each turn, make sure that person is by themselves that turn.  That means you get a whole 4 attacks in before he ever hits your character a second time.  No need to kite him, just stay low on stamina use, or use the talisman to keep it down, but plan turns ahead.

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i also feel like bad luck will for sure happen, but it's about mitigating your chances of having bad luck and once you die, it's then that you have a chance to mitigate why you died when you try that encounter again. i feel like people are jumping too quickly to house rules cuz they're not winning all the time. 

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17 minutes ago, KaiinRetsu said:

Definitely try it again.  Very little equipment is needed to deal with enemies like the Sentinel, but it is still difficult with lower equipment.  Definitely get used to the games mechanics on easier mini-bosses.  I managed to beat the Sentinel with 3 players, with only a couple pieces of gear.  

 

Also, you say he hit you for 6 area damage.  Assassin should be dodging, and it does suck if he misses it, the knight and warrior should be able to take some of it down, not sure about the herald's starting equipment.  That being said, why were you all on the same node?  You know who he is going to attack each turn, make sure that person is by themselves that turn.  That means you get a whole 4 attacks in before he ever hits your character a second time.  No need to kite him, just stay low on stamina use, or use the talisman to keep it down, but plan turns ahead.

Since he attacks closest if someone is at range 0 with him when they end their turn (since you have to be on him to attack, and can't move both before and after attack) he can quite easily just chain hit the one or more characters in the same tile, correct? 

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1 hour ago, Cylon said:

Since he attacks closest if someone is at range 0 with him when they end their turn (since you have to be on him to attack, and can't move both before and after attack) he can quite easily just chain hit the one or more characters in the same tile, correct? 

Well only 2 people can be on the tile with him.  The assassin should be able to dodge fairly easily, I think he only has a 1 for dodging, right?  Then your knight can block pretty decently, even with base gear, to last at least 2 hits.  This include using the luck and ability tokens.  Then when someone moves on to the tile, when 2 people are with the sentinel, push off the one who is least likely to survive the next hit.  

 

Of course, all of this is dependant on dice rolls, as table top games are usually.  Don't think that the dice is randomness though.  When playing video games, like Dark Souls, how many times do you die by missing a block or dodge?  Dice is the way of emulating that chance of pressing too early or late, or dodging the wrong way and clipping something.

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OK, I was wrong. I just finished a game in 83 minutes, not counting setup. Granted, this was with the double souls half sparks rule, versus the easy bosses (Gargoyle and Dancer) and was a solo assassin playthrough with incredible optimal draws (Effigy Shield + Winged Spear in the first 4 treasure cards, five chests, and 2 of the 5 easiest encounters in the game by my stats), and I was using all the shortcuts I could like only filling in the last cube in the stamina bar and not moving enemies if the position didn't matter anymore, but still, a 90 minute game is possible. 

My final equipment:

Gargoyle's Halberd with Sharp and Blessed gems

Exile Armour

Effigy Shield

Heal (because of course I drew Heal, it wouldn't be the luckiest game ever otherwise)

That just goes to hammer home the point that the 90-120 minute playtime on the box is ridiculous. It would have taken me at least 15 more minutes to farm the initial encounters for souls, since it took 11 with double rewards. It took 17 minutes to reset after the mini boss, since I did all the setup and shuffling myself, but realistically the average buyer is in that position too.

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Question for everyone who's managed to get some games in:

 

Do you guys feel like the 1-estus-use limit is good/reasonable/bad? To me it seems really counter-intuitive to the way the videogames work, especially considering you already have a combined stamina/health bar.

Likewise, with the loot decks...I had thought of removing all the class-only loot for any class we aren't using...is that fair/reasonable/good? I mean, seems stupid to draw 3 assassin-only items when we're not using the assassin... >.<

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20 minutes ago, stargorger said:

Question for everyone who's managed to get some games in:

 

Do you guys feel like the 1-estus-use limit is good/reasonable/bad? To me it seems really counter-intuitive to the way the videogames work, especially considering you already have a combined stamina/health bar.

Likewise, with the loot decks...I had thought of removing all the class-only loot for any class we aren't using...is that fair/reasonable/good? I mean, seems stupid to draw 3 assassin-only items when we're not using the assassin... >.<

First off, I think 1 estus flasks is just enough.  If I had one per battle, I would not have felt the need to cash in my first two encounters due to the lack their of.  Using your Estus flask earlier than a boss becomes super deadly, if you reach the boss.  Using it basically tells you that you need better gear before progressing.  Considering the fact that you fully heal after every encounter also makes having more than one pointless.

 

Class only loot...  I am assuming you mean equipment that is generally meant for that class?  The actual class specific loot only goes in the deck if you are using that class.  I don't agree with this, in fact, I kind of want to include other class specific cards besides the classes I use.  Everyone, that I have seen, seems to think that the class equipment cards can only be equipped by the class, but I have not read that in the rules at all.  Yeah, the equipment is geared towards the role of the class, and the requirements will fit nicely for the class too.  However, if a herald wants to use an assassin's weapon, why shouldn't he? 

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So, I played a couple games, one on my own and one with my wife and a couple of friends. I've got mixed feelings about the game at the moment.

I really like the life/endurance mechanic. I feel like it really captures the risk vs reward tradeoff of the video games. I also love the boss encounters. They're engaging and cool, and feel dynamic. The moment you walk into the boss area, there's instantly a feeling of uncertainty and dread while you reason about whether it's best to attack the boss head on or hang back and play it safe while you learn what the boss is capable of.

I feel like the progression rate is pretty good. I houseruled stuff to accommodate newer players tonight and we were too overpowered for my taste, so I'm inclined to feel that the core rules are likely pretty balanced in that respect. While I thought I would dislike having seemingly random treasures that you're forced to spec into, I do feel like it encourages some interesting character builds so keeps the progression fresh.

What I didn't like is how solvable and static the grunt encounters feel. While positioning matters in the game, I sort of feel like the best positioning is almost always obvious because there's no uncertainty in grunt behavior. Yes, there's the risk of a bad die roll turning a good position into a terrible one, but I never truly felt the weight of a decision in a normal encounter.

It occurs to me that it's a little concerning that people complain about grind because it implies that a vast swath of the gameplay is something they don't really want to do again. In some dice chucking RPGs, lack of a very clever combat engine isn't so bad because you're invested in story or some other contextual action your characters are participating in, but Dark Souls as a franchise leans heavily on the combat experience rather than investment in story or characters, so it's strange when that highlighted feature can feel a little dull. I'm puzzled as to why grunts don't have their own small behavior decks of even just like 3 cards a piece. I realize this is likely for simplicity and streamlining the gameplay, but if it makes for a more interesting battle, I think most players would excuse a longer playtime if it means less going through the motions to get to the good bits because all battles are good bits.

The one other thing is I kind of wish is a line of sight mechanic for ranged attacks and just more significance of the actual terrain. Except when there are traps, it really just feels like I'm moving between big empty rooms. I can definitely appreciate wanting to avoid bogging the game down with rules, but at the same time I think there needs to be enough variation to make the game feel fresh.

I think I need a few more playthroughs to really settle on an opinion, but for now I think there's a pretty even split in terms of things I think were great design choices and less successful ones.

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10 hours ago, Cylon said:

Since he attacks closest if someone is at range 0 with him when they end their turn (since you have to be on him to attack, and can't move both before and after attack) he can quite easily just chain hit the one or more characters in the same tile, correct? 

You mean nodes obviously and since the Sentinel pushes anyone of his node, then moves 1 towards its target and pushes again and then attacks all on the node of its target you have all kind of chances to make sure that the target is alone on a node, so nobody else will get hit.

Also, based on what I've read, it's quite early to call it a day and come to a conclusion after what, 3 encounters, don't you think? :)

With 4 players there is more strategy involved then you might think, beginning with which enemies you activate first (considering there are 2+ with same threat), which route you let them go (there are regularly several options and the decision here also can have a big impact on the overall result) up to the actual decisions on the characters activation.

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3 hours ago, Replect said:

You mean nodes obviously and since the Sentinel pushes anyone of his node, then moves 1 towards its target and pushes again and then attacks all on the node of its target you have all kind of chances to make sure that the target is alone on a node, so nobody else will get hit.

Unless I am reading something wrong, he would not push anyone off of his node to start with.  First off, pushes only happen when a moving enemy comes in to a node, not starting on a node.  Second, he targets nearest character.  The movement rules say that enemies move until they are on the same node, or as close to as they can get, as their target.  If his target is on his node, the sentinel does not move.  Nor does he push anyone to start with, before moving.

 

Edit: I am wrong on that, in the push rules it says they all get moved right away.  This is a gray area and probably will need to be FAQ'ed, but it appears that despite not having to move to be next to his opponent, he will still push and then follow.  What got me confused is in the FAQ and errata that was released, movements with attacks associated with them only affect those in the nodes that are moved in to, not the starting node.  

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@KaiinRetsu

I think it's pretty clear in the rulebook, but it's also covered in the FAQ

The FAQ also doesn't say movements with attacks only affects those on the nodes they move onto. It says the attack only affects those on the nodes they move onto, but the push still happens. You have to differentiate here between the actual push and the attack attached to it.

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8 hours ago, Replect said:

@KaiinRetsu

I think it's pretty clear in the rulebook, but it's also covered in the FAQ

The FAQ also doesn't say movements with attacks only affects those on the nodes they move onto. It says the attack only affects those on the nodes they move onto, but the push still happens. You have to differentiate here between the actual push and the attack attached to it.

The FAQ I am talking about is what came out on the Kickstarter update, not from here on the forums.  My issue was that I was remembering the FAQ wrong, thinking it was related to the push, not the attack.

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30 minutes ago, KaiinRetsu said:

The FAQ I am talking about is what came out on the Kickstarter update, not from here on the forums.  My issue was that I was remembering the FAQ wrong, thinking it was related to the push, not the attack.

Ah, okay! :)

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