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Lena

Hunter's Current State

I know Hunters weren't regarded very well at the start of Season 3; have the new releases done anything to change that for them?

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42 minutes ago, Lena said:

I know Hunters weren't regarded very well at the start of Season 3; have the new releases done anything to change that for them?

I think most people agree that having extra options is an improvement, but it's a little early to say whether they will shift the team to actually being more competitive. I would say that perception-wise they are still generally regarded as the weakest Guild, but only time will tell if that actually bears out...

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Hunters are such odd ducks. I think the new releases sort of help but it doesn't fix some of the questionable design decisions they already have. Zarola's playbook still makes no sense for the model or background and is just plain bad. Seenah being 0/2, doesn't affect Seenah but her team for bringing her. Theron's second half playbook is junk (why is his 3 on a 6 - what other captains, who have access to low KD , have such poor DMG output). Egret having Snap Fire which is a crap shoot of a play. Etc. 

Hunters are not unplayable, heck they just won a local tournament I ran. But they require everything to go right, otherwise their inconsistent design exposes itself. They have no comeback options and sometimes it feels like you can see the gears grinding against each other. No other guild has this issue.

What the new models do is offer pseudo footballers. But they still have the same questionable design ethos - Tackle on column 2 of a TAC 5 model does not a good striker make (compare Fillet...), nor does having to hurt someone to get Super Shot when it opens himself up to getting tackled. 

I like Hunters. I like running, shooting and stabbing people. But...they are hard work and I don't think the new models are a panacea. If you want something different and frankly odd, they are fun. If you want a reliable team you can play the game with any sort of predictability then look elsewhere. 

Best models in the game though. No question. 

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I think Skatha on her own will push the team up, she pumps up the mobility a lot, which is awesome.

I found her harder to use than Theron, though, especially if you want to get the absolute most out of her; she can often contribute something to the team in a given turn, though, and usually more than Theron for the same inf cost.

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58 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Hunters are such odd ducks. I think the new releases sort of help but it doesn't fix some of the questionable design decisions they already have. Zarola's playbook still makes no sense for the model or background and is just plain bad. Seenah being 0/2, doesn't affect Seenah but her team for bringing her. Theron's second half playbook is junk (why is his 3 on a 6 - what other captains, who have access to low KD , have such poor DMG output). Egret having Snap Fire which is a crap shoot of a play. Etc. 

Hunters are not unplayable, heck they just won a local tournament I ran. But they require everything to go right, otherwise their inconsistent design exposes itself. They have no comeback options and sometimes it feels like you can see the gears grinding against each other. No other guild has this issue.

What the new models do is offer pseudo footballers. But they still have the same questionable design ethos - Tackle on column 2 of a TAC 5 model does not a good striker make (compare Fillet...), nor does having to hurt someone to get Super Shot when it opens himself up to getting tackled. 

I like Hunters. I like running, shooting and stabbing people. But...they are hard work and I don't think the new models are a panacea. If you want something different and frankly odd, they are fun. If you want a reliable team you can play the game with any sort of predictability then look elsewhere. 

Best models in the game though. No question. 

qkkawe9.jpg

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The new four make the Hunters playable, IMO.  I'll actually get them out of the bag and put them on the table for a little bit for kicks and giggles, just to understand the new players.  I won't play them a lot, or competitively, and I don't expect to win with them often, but they're at least playable.  Still easily the weakest Guild.  Skatha is a strong support piece for a player, but not for a captain.  The Hunters are weird in that they have pretty strong players (Jaecar, Chaska, even some plays on Hearne2, Zarola) but their Captains really seem to struggle.  They look fun, but fun isn't enough for me to play them more than a handful of times.  I expect them to get buffed in Season 4, so I'll play them occasionally to retain a passing knowledge of them, but then I'm back to my Union, or Alchemists, or maybe Fish since I'm getting a steal on them.  

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I played with all the new hunters (Skatha, Snow, Ulfr, vHearne, Jeacar and Minx) just this weekend. Played against Union (vRage, Coin, A&G, Fangtooth, Heamlock and Harry) to a 8-12 Loss.

Skatha scored me 2 goals, and admittedly they were "impressive". However for me it was like a quantum theory puzzle to score them Everything had to be inch perfect but if you did you got the goal (and I did, but sure as hell couldn't do it at a tournament chess clock :D). So she was the MVP (still got beat but was a close match, and stupid plays out with REALLY didn't help)

I don't like Snow, sadly. Admittedly he spent the whole game on fire and slowly dying, but I didn't feel the need to spend the MOM on him, or ever give him INF. His anatomical I don't see coming in THAT useful, especially since using it basically tells your opponent your intent. Maybe a turn 1 thing to get your opponent to move first and you don't need to show your hand. Ooh Ball! I don't see coming into play THAT often and Pack Mentality is fiddly for me (Snow at the wrong angle won't save anyone and basically means if the enemy has a knockdown, they'll use it)

Ulfr sadly didn't get a chance to shine, he sacrificed himself to get Skatha out of a bind (Fangtooth KD on 1 is HORRID) so I'm reserving judgement, I can see the potential just didn't get a chance.

vHearne saved me a good few times, and his 2" is ALWAYS welcome. Even his Last Light, although only used once, helped me get one of those beautiful goals. I can see him doing well with Theron as well, but think I might stick with oHearne but obviously gonna give it a try.

Overall it's a no bad haul in my minor opinion. Does it fix the Hunters? Dunno, likely not but at least gives options and means of doing somethings a bit different. I regretted taking Minx, was a tossup between her, Seenah and Chaska and just thought Chaska or Seenah could have done a bit more for me (pushes/damage etc) but then I missed Zarola/Egret (funnily enough my 2 least used models) and just went pure speed and football. That and even just wished for Theron again lol if probably due to familiarity.

Anyway first game out the gate, enjoyed it (despite taking the ENTIRE day to play, so always play with chess clocks children lol) and will likely keep doing so.

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The new hunters will certainly help, in that the team now have more options. They still won't be competitive and this comes down to a few things;

  •     Complexity- Hunters have a lot going on and this all require planning and setup, this will eat away at your clock.
  •     Predictable- With all that planning and setup hunters turns are telegraphed.
  •     Unforgiving- Hunters don't adapt well, if everything doesn't go to plan it's very difficult for Hunters to overcome this.

I find they aren't particularly good at anything, Egret is the most consistent striker in that she requires the least setup but she's below the curve of every other teams striker (including none footbally teams: Brisket, Friday).

They have some options for damage, Jaecar is a beast and the Bear if position well can do some work. You'll probably get one or two take outs but you are going to win the takeout game.

The captains are both sub par really. I like Skatha and some of the ideas but she just requires too much setup and hoping nothing goes wrong (2 influence for snowball pass and a possible dodge, really?). The hunters really needed a superstar captain, Skatha's sadly not it.

The solution- That's the million dollar question, how can you change the hunters to be more competitive but not lose their aesthetic. I don't have the answers but I've been rolling a few ideas around in my head.

TheRon- His playbook is confused, his supposed to be a bit of a bruiser and his really not. I'd probably give him mom 1 on his first column, remove the mom result from the second column and replace the 2>> for a 3 on the 5th column.

It's just silly he needs 6 hits to get 3 damage atm, even on a snared target it's unlikely unless they are a tank.

I also feel he needs a new trait since he lost forest sight. I was thinking of a sort of marksmen theme, once per turn adding a free bonus time to a Character play.

I've never like pinned, in my opinion it's a bit out of place or perhaps it's just named incorrectly. I'd like to see it replaced with a 3 cost 3 damage 10" (or dare I say 12", probably too far) character play but Christ lets give him some range his got a long bow after all.

Anyway that's enough for now, I've got a few other ideas I might share at some point.

Stay strong hunters.

 

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Well Hunters are better now but suffer from the whole unbalanced ordeal that currently is Guild Ball. The strongest guilds are those that can 3-0 reliably (alch and fish) and simplicity (despite to what their players might say) of playing those guilds is feeding the drop of players. In my area GB died with 3 edition as lots of players who play different games thought that they will just "wait out" this edition that doesn't give them any chance.

I played with new hunters 5 times now and I think that they can be good and can shake things up a little in the current meta. Out of new models only Snow is totally subpar and not worth considering over Fahy. Just take new captain - fahy and all players bar the ron - zerola - normal harne and you are good to go. Hunters are supposedly mixed bag - not 3-0 team so playing them and trying to outfootball fish or alch is just stupid. Your greatest asset now is flexibility - I took Fahad Minx and Seenah - 3 models that charge for 3 and Jeac Skatha and Ulf to win over Alchs that were pretty sure that I cannot do anything.

One thing would go a little step in helping to restore balance to guild ball - my friends and I thought about this during our last games - what if returning player would have to return from behind the goal (so 1 edge of the map and not sides) this would delay the time he can be of any use. Currently we all thing that goal scoring has so much over kills that this game heavily favors 3-0 teams - If you would have to be more concerned about your players going of the pitch (not only 2 points loss but also reduced chance to prevent me from scoring) this could lead to some balancing in subtle way

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Pre skatha and vhearne they were the burning garbage fire of guild ball.

After them i would say they are a viable team -- but not a strong team.

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The trouble (according to me) isn't the rules or 3rd or the hunters or fish or alchs but the FOCUS of our tactics.

Killz are what we're most often used to (most of us come from wargaming background after all), but its a football game, no wonder why fish and alchs are so good, they play football not killz, getting free influence for each goal is a TREMENDOUS BOOM! And goals give more points and are quicker to score. I recently realised its much more beneficial to use initial attack to dodge out of a melee, get the ball and try to score.

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I'm loving the new Hunters, I have played five games with them out of five winning with three Goals each game.

Skatha Is a great Captain, she scores me at least two Goals per game. Snow Ball Is a great Character Play the ability to make yourself or another player to Dodge 4" Is huge and very reliable with a Kick of 4/6". Cold Snap Is very good, auto Snared on a few Players If you generate It from your Playbook. Skatha Legendary Is one of my new Favorites, give you easy access to Tackle Push/Dodge or Just an extra Double Push/Dodge, great on other players too especially to be used on a Counter Attack to get out of Trouble. With her mobility, speed and KICK she can easily get Goals at the moment I'm favoring Kicking, she applies pressure and can grab the ball back In a snap.  

Snow Aura Is very strong against Guilds like Butchers and more direct damage players but haven't used Feral Instincts yet but I can see used for a Receiving Goal Run on turn one.

vHearne Is an Improvement, brings 2 INF and easy access to MP Tackle and KD but I'm missing Single Out but you can't have everything.

Ulfr, I'm slowly learning to use him right and he has gotten me some Goals but Lone Hunter Is a pain to work around.

 

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So far so good with new Hunters. I think with the new players, they dug out of the bottom. I still can't play them on a clock yet, but Skatha is a superstar striker and support captain (compared to the slightly disappointing sBrisket who scores better but does nothing without the ball). With enough time, Skatha can score for miles through all sorts of situations. And when she does get taken out, you feel the loss of having her on the pitch, unlike Theron. 

Vhearne is good, not great, but a 2 inch model that threatens KD and gives the option of 2 more inf is awesome. I often just use him as a battery who engages people and contribute his 2 inf to the team. It just saddens me every time I use Vhearne to realize how bad ohearne is. 

Ulfr is good, but I never really used his damage ability to kick better, because I'm always needing that inf to do stuff. (dodge out or tackle). But having a WTG model on the team, along with Skatha snowball, is a HUGE welcome in dealing with unpredictable movement models. All of a sudden, Brisket and Greyscales and Midas can be dealt with by Hunters! 

Snow is definitely the puzzle. All his abilities look great, but I rarely get to use them. Anatomical Precision is like Tooled up, you never have time after the first turn to apply it. Ooh Ball sounds great but rarely happens. Pack mentality has helped me save people from butchers quite a few times, but requires super good placement. Still trying to figure Snow out, but I still think he's more flexible than Fahad. 

More hunters games coming up! I'm definitely loving the new team. 

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Can anyone give me some tips on Skatha because I'm obviously using her wrong! I am finding that if I walk up to people (so I can pop legendary) I miss the T on 2 hits (TAC 5 vs DEF and ARM) and if I charge, they either defensive stance and counter or both and I still lose the ball. I've also found that 2" melee models a nightmare to disengage from. Can anyone suggest how to take advantage of her scoring potential because I am being frustrated by it in the main if my opponent knows what they are doing.

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Well only having scored two goals with her this'll probably not mean much

First goal was with aid of Legendary and Scatha was just shy of position.

Fired a snowball to dodge her into position to clip, Fangtooth, Harry, Avarisse, Greede and Coin (he was just a bonus would never touch him)

So I charged Fangtooth who had the ball, kept to the 1”, tackled the ball, managed a wrap and took the double dodge. Moved the 3” to engage Avarisse, pushed off him and fired a goal (knee sided out but beside the point). Had to pinpoint move her to avoid gang-ups etc but was a satisfying goal. (well best I’ve ever done lol than simply firing it into the net cause I winged it right out to one side)

Second was fairly similar but no legendary to help.

Avarisse found himself with the ball but Skatha found herself yet again engaged with Fangtooth (bloody KD on 1) had to throw vHearne into him to get rid of Gluttonous Mass, passed Last Light onto Skatha as well. Smacked Fang for a 2” push and threw a Cold Snap hitting vRage and Avarise, (but only succeeding on Avarisse) Charged Avarisse and tackle and pushed off him and went for goal.

It’s the most combat orientated footballing I’ve done since picking up GB, only reason it took me ages to work out how to do it lol.

Think best is regardless of Melee Range you want to keep Skatha her full 1” where possible. She can get away no bother then. Snowball is great but you’ll never really get the MOM out of it as you’ll immediately spend it for dodges. She was defiantly my MVP (since my only points were from said goals) but I don’t think she’s gonna be my sole Hunter Captain.

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2 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Can anyone give me some tips on Skatha because I'm obviously using her wrong! I am finding that if I walk up to people (so I can pop legendary) I miss the T on 2 hits (TAC 5 vs DEF and ARM) and if I charge, they either defensive stance and counter or both and I still lose the ball. I've also found that 2" melee models a nightmare to disengage from. Can anyone suggest how to take advantage of her scoring potential because I am being frustrated by it in the main if my opponent knows what they are doing.

If it's first turn and you kicked you need to go in early so they only have a maximum of one momentum. Can you snare them with her AOE AND have enough influence to tackle and score? If so do so. Defensive stance not a problem you should get tackle  and have no dangers from trying again.

if you can and there is time (and you didn't need the snowball) lot of ifs! Move a player up first to be with 6 inches of where skatha will be. Use your walk, then legend, then if you don't hit the tackle you can still push dodge plus dodge on 1 hit out of their 2 inch mellee then snowball back in.

not perfect but some ideas.

2 inch mellee is her nemesis.

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So, I was listening to a podcast that is currently eluding my naming recollection, and they were talking about Ulfr (I want there to be another vowel in that name BTW) and how good he could be if he only had some extra dodges to get out of combat after hitting or tackling.. and then I'm looking at Skatha and Snow and V. Herne (with Last Light) and I'm like.. uh.. all of those models give out some sort of dodge (okay, Pack Mentality requires a counter-attack (or parting blow?) that does damage..  but the point was more that at first glance, each model has deficiencies.. but they actually (to me) look like the overlap between models is doing to allow for some pretty interesting combinations... 

I'm not sure if you are better off going for 3 goals with all the fast, striker types... or using the movement bonuses to set up Seenah and Jaecar for take outs while looking for 1 or 2 goals... or even just taking a damage dealing, snared and poison and bleeding condition force and just using the ball (and snowball) to pick your attacks or get your models out of bad situations.... but I see a lot of interesting (if not simple) synergy and suspect this group brings at least some options that were really lacking for the whole team (like decent dodges and more scoring options) which can only be helpful... 

I still worry about the activation order and spending the first half of each turn setting up the 2nd half while my opponent is interfering with that process... I wish V. Herne's 0 influence character play was a once per turn character trait so you didn't have to activate him first to use it.. and I think that people are going to see what the Hunters are trying to do still and work to stop it... but I also suspect that the movement options are going to help because they can't counter those 1" dodges and pushes when they are coming in droves... but you do have to really know your opponents models and be thinking quite far in advanced to get the most out of those movement options if you want to do more than just react to your opponents moves.  

Looking forward to seeing more Hunters on the table now that footballing is a better thing for them.

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On 5/1/2017 at 4:49 PM, EpicChris said:

What the new models do is offer pseudo footballers. But they still have the same questionable design ethos - Tackle on column 2 of a TAC 5 model does not a good striker make (compare Fillet...), nor does having to hurt someone to get Super Shot when it opens himself up to getting tackled. 

This to me is the key issue with hunters. If you get one bad spike your plan just collapses. Ulfr is fine, but having to spend that 1 influence for an attack to get the kick bonus is just stupid. It doesn't give him super shot, it makes him get a kick stat that is simply on par with other strikers, and requires you to risk a counter attack. This counter attack is very likely to succeed as he is a 4/0 model. Against anyone with a lower tackle or KD this is suicide. It is the classic example of the Hunters having to work harder to get players up to a basic level that is comparable to other guilds.

 

Snow I don't get. I have only put him on the table once, but he did nothing the whole game. His ooh ball did limit where the ball could be kicked to me. After that I couldn't figure him out. The lower defenses on the hunters meant they were almost always KD before the damage piled on. The 4" aura just doesn't seem like enough. I understand it requires very careful positioning, but I want my model to be useful most of the time. Giving out anatomical precision was normally not worth burning an activation early in a turn once lines were engaged and a 4/0 state on a mascot with no other defensive tech made him trivial to remove. With Furious, linked, the damage potential, and nimble, I just see much higher utility for Fahad.

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Skatha is fantastic, V. Hearne is slowly growing on me, Snow isn't impressing me much, and Ulfr continues to be horrible.

Skatha does so much more for the team than Theron did. I got work out of Theron when I played him, he's not awful, he may be the worst captain in the game but simply because someone has to be on the bottom, but Skatha just brings the team to a new level. Hunters still have problems, they still have a number of significantly below par models -- Egret, O. Hearne, Ulfr, Theron -- and then a number of weird, harder to use models like Snow, Fahad, Zarola and Seenah, but they're definitely stronger now than they were before. Skatha brings the team from a 0-6 team to a 1-4 team looking for 2-2 if it can swing it; I'd still say 1-4 is the default but it's hungry and capable to go 2-2 if the opportunity presents, and that's a much much better place to be than pre-Skatha Hunters were. The team still struggles to recover the ball, as people in the thread has noted, and this can really blunt the team's capacity for a second goal drive; Skatha and V. Hearne are okay at it, but Jaecar continues to be the best model the team has for recovering the ball sadly. Jaecar continues to be the lynchpin of the team, probably even moreso under Skatha than he was under Theron, scoring nearly all of the guild's takeouts and half the team's goals.

I'd scoff at anyone claiming that Hunters are top tier now, and they're still hobbled by a lot of dead weight in their roster, but the players that aren't dead weight certainly shape up to something impressive and I'd definitely cast them towards the middle of the crowd now.

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