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malladin.ben

Initial thoughts?

70 posts in this topic
4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

My Hot Take is Farmers are ridiculously good. Sure everyone is 3/0 (well Millstone exception) but look at the models - Grange is insane. How did that guy get that package with a 2" melee zone?? Tough Hide, Damage Assist (basically) 5/6 INF, KD on 1...Thresher is going to be a hard sell. Also, I don't buy the low INF argument when as long as you take 2-3 Planters you can expect 15+ INF a turn. And a mascot with an auto-disengage attack?? And Millstone's auto 2" push forward the team on Turn 1?? Insane.

Bonkers. I look forward to playing with/against them, but on paper they look mental. OMG so many 6" Auras, so much KD...wow, double rainbow, all the way...

Sigh, that was my impression when I looked at the cards, but I'm terrible at the game. Hearing other players with more experience voice similar views is disheartening. I mainly play Brewers and Hunters. Past the esthetic, which I like on both teams, I've gotten really disheartened with the new releases. Some of the new additions/team just seem bonkers good while many of the others are just eh. As EpicChris said I just don't see the downside to the Farmers. The stuff that looks obvious on paper (low defenses on some models but many with high defense, lower armor) are very common in other guild that don't have crazy high HPs, lots of auras, and the potential to be a high influence team. Even things like the Donkey being such an efficient piece. With mascots being only 1 VP, isn't that a disadvantage in of itself? I will be very interested to see how these models play out on the table top to see if they really are so impressive.

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I'm sort of surprised they kept the Harvest Markers can be removed for INF ability. I mean Planters alone generate +1 INF compared to normal players, so add in the often free Harvest Markers and you get an INF bonanza PLUS they can do situationally cool effects (yes you are limited by location of markers etc - but that's going to be a hard problem for your opponent to solve while they're getting their head kicked in)! I'm sure on the table they have some issues or something but my hot take is they work synergistically far better than Hunters (where you have to work hard to get the cool +INF effects). I get Hunters get Snared and some control effects, but man, Farmers just get everything easily as long as they stay near each other. I won't play them until real models come out (because remembering 6 proxies would be a nightmare for my opponents) but boy can I see myself tearing through some teams with these guys. I think Fish and Alchemists will be a problem for them, but Brewers and Butchers? They're gonna get murdered.

The BIG thing for me is: Tater's Gencon card forced the Farmer player to remove ALL Harvest markers, which sort of made sense - they would have to work hard each turn to plan out marker placement for a benefit in the next turn. Now they MAY remove them - which means they can have a fountain of INF whenever they want it. Seems a massive change. I think I would like to see the design discussion on that.

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31 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I'm sort of surprised they kept the Harvest Markers can be removed for INF ability. I mean Planters alone generate +1 INF compared to normal players, so add in the often free Harvest Markers and you get an INF bonanza PLUS they can do situationally cool effects (yes you are limited by location of markers etc - but that's going to be a hard problem for your opponent to solve while they're getting their head kicked in)! I'm sure on the table they have some issues or something but my hot take is they work synergistically far better than Hunters (where you have to work hard to get the cool +INF effects). I get Hunters get Snared and some control effects, but man, Farmers just get everything easily as long as they stay near each other. I won't play them until real models come out (because remembering 6 proxies would be a nightmare for my opponents) but boy can I see myself tearing through some teams with these guys. I think Fish and Alchemists will be a problem for them, but Brewers and Butchers? They're gonna get murdered.

The BIG thing for me is: Tater's Gencon card forced the Farmer player to remove ALL Harvest markers, which sort of made sense - they would have to work hard each turn to plan out marker placement for a benefit in the next turn. Now they MAY remove them - which means they can have a fountain of INF whenever they want it. Seems a massive change. I think I would like to see the design discussion on that.

They could also only be removed by charging through them, which was a lot harder to engineer...

Not being able to keep Harvest Markers between turns would be pretty rough - a Counter charge that turns off between rounds? Never being able to start with a Reaper at full strength? Expert mode only I think...

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I guess what puzzles me is I don't see the risk-reward here. Harvest markers just seem to scream profit. I guess it comes down to how easily they can be removed vs hidden from enemy models - but boy, Farmers look like they are going to hit like a pain train, that prints momentum.

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1 hour ago, EpicChris said:

I guess what puzzles me is I don't see the risk-reward here. Harvest markers just seem to scream profit. I guess it comes down to how easily they can be removed vs hidden from enemy models - but boy, Farmers look like they are going to hit like a pain train, that prints momentum.

I really think you are underestimating the downsides of the Farmers' defensive stats. They will get deleted often. They are particularly susceptible to playbooks like the Brewers' and Blackheart—ones that explode when they can hit the top of their playbooks and/or wrap. Having tons of HP does make them die slower than they would otherwise, but it doesn't stop them from bleeding momentum (particularly against charges; charging a Farmers team is more likely to wrap than any other team), so Farmers games are gonna have a lot of momentum on both sides of the pitch. They have situational condition removal because Knockdown and Snared are the apocalypse for Farmers. Farmers also will tend to make a lot of attacks with their usually high INF amounts, yes; but you're forgetting that Harrow, Jackstraw, and Bushel don't have a ton of offensive output even with max stacks of INF, and that Farmers desperately need to Defensive Stance and clear conditions often so they'll gobble up their own momentum. 

Also, you've pointed out a couple times in this thread that you're looking at this from a Hunters player's perspective—I think that probably says a lot about why you're feeling this way about the Farmers. Farmers are definitely better than Hunters, IMO, and have a great matchup against Hunters; they're still middle of the pack overall. I think if any of the original 8 guilds were instead released now, you'd be feeling the same about them from the perspective of the Hunters. 

It's certainly still early and I could be wrong, but Farmers look very well-balanced to me. 

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Oh I'm not saying anything about balance - I mean how can I - I've never even played them. Just that Hot Take is ZOMG! INF! AMAHZING! :)

I'm sure the world won't end when they get released and I welcome our new Farmer Overlords...;)

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6 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Oh I'm not saying anything about balance - I mean how can I - I've never even played them. Just that Hot Take is ZOMG! INF! AMAHZING! :)

I'm sure the world won't end when they get released and I welcome our new Farmer Overlords...;)

Well I'll be playing them, so you can expect to lose to them sometimes Chris 😜

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Yeah that's the truth. You only pick overpowered Guilds! :)

BUURRRN! ;)

I look forward to our Hunter mirror match at Jumpers...battle of the SNARE!

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30 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I guess what puzzles me is I don't see the risk-reward here. Harvest markers just seem to scream profit. I guess it comes down to how easily they can be removed vs hidden from enemy models - but boy, Farmers look like they are going to hit like a pain train, that prints momentum.

They are essentially profit, but Planters are underwhelming in terms of out put, and Reapers are underwhelming without support. Windle is just very mediocre without Big Breakfast for example. Ideally, you want to give him another buff as well. Otherwise, he's got the sand Liability as Stave, but without the ability to stand back throwing barrels at people...

Bushel without Cabbage Punt is an extremely uninteresting mediocre striker - With it, she's incredibly accurate. Tater is my favourite Reaper primarily because he doesn't need as much set up to activate. 

So sure, the Harvest Markers are a strength but they're also showing your hand to some extent...

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For the memes:

7 hours ago, EpicChris said:

My Hot Take is Farmers are ridiculously good.

 

4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

 As a Hunter's player

 

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As a fellow Hunters player, I feel that Pin Vice, Smoke, Hammer, and Scalpel are also ridiculously good.

 

In all fairness though, Farmers seem like what Hunters were meant to be - a team that is fair to middling at the base and explosively good with a bit of careful setup.

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Didn't get a proper game in, as it ended early, but got to test them a bit. Tater is a god walking amongst mere mortals, and the Cult of the Tots should form around him soon. Grange is amazing, though I didn't get to play with his kick aura too much, since I was mostly playing keep away. Bushel is nice but I should have played her very differently than I did. Didn't give her nearly enough inf or use her for kicking enough. Of the two and a bit turns we got, every turn after the first had me sitting pretty at 15 inf.

Millstone I feel is a backbone for the team along with Harrow. Those early pushes into goalkeeper on turn one are amazing. The donkey, sadly didn't do much. He got killed in the first turn and was barely too slow to get back in.

I plan to play with Thresher, Windle and JStraw next time I get a chance to try them. Maybe that'll allow me a slightly less bunched up game. The chicken hasn't had a chance to grow on me yet, but so far I'm loving the farmers.

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As a side thought... I just realized that Harrow's job (aside from tooling up) is literally farming momentum and influence by sowing the seeds on knocked down people.

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12 hours ago, Slothrop said:

Thresher is just far and away the Farmers' best kickoff model

Who would you use in Grange setups? Donkey was my pick, but Bushel was proooobably the better choice.

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8 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Who would you use in Grange setups? Donkey was my pick, but Bushel was proooobably the better choice.

Just spitballing ideas but Tater maybe? He doesn't quite have the same 6+8+scatter variety of locations to place the ball, but his followup threat is better and you could easily set up "Fork Off" first activation. A counter charge 6" up the board off the bat could possibly be interesting?

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True enough. Last game I set him up by ramming Milly through the line and Harrow dropping a marker by him, but making him kick would work too. Exposing the donkey just got him bear hugged.

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4 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Who would you use in Grange setups? Donkey was my pick, but Bushel was proooobably the better choice.

I think Alex's point is that's why you need both Captains in your 9 - you want to be able to kick with Thresher. I completely agree that Thresher is by far the best model to kick with in the Guild. I have experimented a bit with using Bushel to kick off, but she's just not that kind of aggressive striker that can either threaten that far or do much with 4 influence if she can't get to the ball. 

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12 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Who would you use in Grange setups? Donkey was my pick, but Bushel was proooobably the better choice.

Exactly what @FearLord said. I think even if you loved Grange and felt he was straight better than Thresher, Thresher will be necessary for kicking off and Grange just doesn't have an option for it. This might be different if Farmers had Union options, but since we haven't heard anything about that I'm just operating assuming they have no Union choices. A kicking model needs to exert pressure at the very least to screw up the opponent's plans and ideally to actually score points. Thresher does all that. There's a real chance that an inexperienced or unfocused player might make a positioning error that allows Thresher to get a 6 point activation on the bottom of turn one. His kicking pressure isn't S2 Obulus levels, but I think it's definitely comparable to Fillet and only somewhat worse than Shark, and Thresher has the benefit of Millstone and Peck, who can stop him being KDd with no momentum.

This does mean Farmers may have trouble while kicking into matchups Thresher doesn't wanna see. For example, Brewers' playbooks, Tough Hide, and KD focus make them a tough matchup for Farmers in general IMO. Grange seems way better suited to fight Brewers (he likes to be in a scrum, he's got a Sturdy legendary, he can Tough Hide people, he can run enough reapers to compete in teamwide damage), but if you're kicking off against Brewers you're either gonna have to compromise the matchup and pick Thresher or compromise turn one and pick Grange. I don't know what my response to the situation is yet (or whether I've read it wrong) but that seems like a big problem for the team from here. 

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The 6 point activation seems like a tough thing to bet on. He certainly does damage, but at 5 inf plus DFT, can he really reliably score a take out and score? Legitimately asking, I'm still pretty inexperienced.

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Definitely unlikely, but possible. Remember he should always be Tooled Up turn one. Still, expecting to get 2-4 points and then another 2 points at the start of turn 2 if you win initiative seems much more reasonable. 

Ziggy likes this

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Fair enough. Is there any running him with Windle, or are Tater or Bushel the only good reaper options for him, do you think? Not counting the donkey.

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1 hour ago, Ziggy said:

Fair enough. Is there any running him with Windle, or are Tater or Bushel the only good reaper options for him, do you think? Not counting the donkey.

I think Windle is effectively 'Grange only'. The influence is a serious consideration, but more than that an Isolated Windle is a dead Windle - Grange can help protect him easier and plays a more supportive bunched up game. 

I think you probably only want either Tater or Bushel with Thresher. You need decent resources available. I definitely favour Tater with him. Tater is awesome. 

2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

The 6 point activation seems like a tough thing to bet on. He certainly does damage, but at 5 inf plus DFT, can he really reliably score a take out and score? Legitimately asking, I'm still pretty inexperienced.

If you go in last activation, it's not too unlikely to set things up so that you can end the turn with a bunch of momentum and a model KD with a few health left that you can finish off quick before going for a loose ball or another juicy target...

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I'm still not sure who I'd even be willing to pull from my 9. Windle or Peck seem most likely, but Peck is situationally great, and I wanna try Windle. Bushel would be a choice, but I feel like she's better than I give her credit for.

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Played the farmers this week.I absolutely love these guys it was stupid fun.Harvest markers are an interesting mechanic that I enjoyed.

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