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Fermorfan

Season 3 is not for Brewers

173 posts in this topic
1 hour ago, jmrhode1 said:

Received against Alchs last night and used the Cat Strat to great efficiency, blocking vitriols charge lane and then pulling an unsuspecting Harry in to threat range. Vitriol goes and hits friday a few times and puts up clone. Tapper burns the clone with a Bonus timed marked target (whew) and then puts her into the dirt start of round 2. Very interest pressure that the cat provides. 

I was about to say "it's a tactic for kicking off" but fair point it's a reasonable tactic against the Vitriol kick as well. I wonder if the same thing could block Shark turn 1..

I've used the cat in this way loads, back in season 2 it meant sacrificing Scum but the season 3 rules protect him somewhat and make the play even better.

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5 hours ago, Sid said:

Harry can't get Tooled Up and doesn't benefit from Commanding Aura.

Is tooled up really necessary or even an option after turn 1? It's a ridiculously obvious tipping of your hand and oSpigot deals more damage then anyone on the team in proper circumstances.

I have sort of found that in brewers, each player has a bit of support they can play, and they have a bit of cleanup they can throw down.  Its nice for order of activation because everyone can help set everyone up a little bit, even if its just a valuable KD.  

Along the same lines though, I think that every player can only afford one other player to help set them up.  Like I don't think Tapper needs to put up Aura, Spigot tools up hooper and kds someone, and then Hooper goes to kill them.  Either putting up the aura or throwing out Tooled up and Kding someone is enough.  You dont need both.  I think Brewers players often take a couple activations trying to set up one massive one, and outside of the 1st turn I think this is very frequently a mistake.

Its also one of the reasons I really like A&G with them.  The big guy has singled out and easy KDs so sets up your whole lineup.  He has momentous dmg with a brewer tac/playbook so he cleans up too.  And he adds a much desired goal threat to the team.  I just think he fits nice.  

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10 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Is tooled up really necessary or even an option after turn 1? It's a ridiculously obvious tipping of your hand and oSpigot deals more damage then anyone on the team in proper circumstances.

If you have someone KD with Tough Hide and a fully loaded oSpigot (so very likely to wrap on each attack), you will do more damage if you tool yourself up and do 1 less attack than do 4 attacks and get less damage with each of them.

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2 hours ago, Sid said:

If you have someone KD with Tough Hide and a fully loaded oSpigot (so very likely to wrap on each attack), you will do more damage if you tool yourself up and do 1 less attack than do 4 attacks and get less damage with each of them.

Thank you. That's a good thing to know. 

Mildly off topic, super interested in the homelands team with Theron and spigot/graves so you can tooled up for 1mp. Think it's going to be a really fun use of TU for mid game. 

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Yeah I think that was one of my biggest downfalls was trying to get that perfect activation with all the stars aligned.  7 TAC Hooper going in on a commanding aura'd target with tooled up, maybe poison knives and a couple of crowdouts.  The times I did this, I either killed the model in the first or second attack, but needed more momentum and spent time pushing around to build it, or my opponent simply stopped Hooper.  Gut and String, Puppet Master, Tucked, Blind, anything of that sort.  

But then, without any setup, Hooper fails.  Hooper is the worst first activation the Brewers have because he wants that heroic so bad.  It's required.  The MOM 3 you want is all the way at the very end.  on Column 5 compared to Spigot's on 4, or Tapper's on 4.  His counterattack abilities aren't amazing either, with a KD on 3 and the double push on 4.  This isn't saying that Hooper is bad.  He's fine, but I only bring him when I need 2'' melee.  In a game where I can no longer kill faster than my opponent can score, I find I have to focus more on players that can hide the ball, and kill models over a few activations with less support.  Thus, PintPot, or Spigot1.

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17 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Is tooled up really necessary or even an option after turn 1? It's a ridiculously obvious tipping of your hand and oSpigot deals more damage then anyone on the team in proper circumstances.

I have sort of found that in brewers, each player has a bit of support they can play, and they have a bit of cleanup they can throw down.  Its nice for order of activation because everyone can help set everyone up a little bit, even if its just a valuable KD.  

Along the same lines though, I think that every player can only afford one other player to help set them up.  Like I don't think Tapper needs to put up Aura, Spigot tools up hooper and kds someone, and then Hooper goes to kill them.  Either putting up the aura or throwing out Tooled up and Kding someone is enough.  You dont need both.  I think Brewers players often take a couple activations trying to set up one massive one, and outside of the 1st turn I think this is very frequently a mistake.

Its also one of the reasons I really like A&G with them.  The big guy has singled out and easy KDs so sets up your whole lineup.  He has momentous dmg with a brewer tac/playbook so he cleans up too.  And he adds a much desired goal threat to the team.  I just think he fits nice.  

i use tooled up in a very targetted way on turn 1 in my games only. After turn 1 my player with tooled up will just throw it on any random damage dealer, since the point of it is an efficiency increase. turning 1 inf into more damage than a player would normally do by just doing that attack. 

Even on supreme beatstick models like Fillet you get really lucky to tool her up after t1 because she tends to grab the initiative and do her own thing. So yeah, i really don't rate the importance of needing to tool harry up, or even commanding aura him. he does his job and he does it well regardless. Tool up is something i'll use every turn unless i'm greatly incentivised not to (ie - i'm 1 attack away from killing someone important, or i need to run and tackle the ball) but its not something that can be relied to be placed on the best models for it... takes so long to set it up.

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That's seems to be the case for Fillet yes, but I disagree that that Tooled Up doesn't have value for us beyond turn 1.

The difference is that we have a number of models that can do the deed, and we are normally bunched up. I'll save Spigot for mid turn, applying Tooled Up to whoever can definitely punch somebody. As Jedi says there are a number of models that can ruin things for you, just watch out for them/stop them first/wait for them to activate. Not possible every turn though, granted. Don't forget a loaded Spigot will do more damage if he tools himself up, and there is no warning for the opponent there at all.

Hooper or Stoker at 3+ damage is over the top and rarely worth the effort, but with Tapper on the team most people will be at +1 and one if them should be at +2. Still a formidable amount of damage.

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5 hours ago, CurlyPaul said:

Don't forget a loaded Spigot will do more damage if he tools himself up, and there is no warning for the opponent there at all.

 

Ummm no? He does more damage in almost every situation if he spends that inf to make another attack. 

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1 hour ago, Frankanelli said:

Ummm no? He does more damage in almost every situation if he spends that inf to make another attack. 

Against a 4/1 model he will hit the 2 damage 4 times in a row. The chances of hitting the 3 damage are 22.6% so that's going to be pretty reliably 8 damage, maybe 9.

If he uses Tooled Up, then that becomes reliably 9, maybe 10. 

If the target is low def, Floored, crowded out etc so that Spigot will hit the 3 and start to get a wrap or two , that difference grows. 

If we go the other way, so the target is 5/0 and Spigot has no other help, he will probably hit the 1 damage 4 times, or Tooled Up he'll hit it 3 times and do 6 damage. 

If Spigot has 4 inf, he should always be tooling himself up before punching someone, unless there is a situation I've missed?

 

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34 minutes ago, CurlyPaul said:

Against a 4/1 model he will hit the 2 damage 4 times in a row. The chances of hitting the 3 damage are 22.6% so that's going to be pretty reliably 8 damage, maybe 9.

If he uses Tooled Up, then that becomes reliably 9, maybe 10. 

If the target is low def, Floored, crowded out etc so that Spigot will hit the 3 and start to get a wrap or two , that difference grows. 

If we go the other way, so the target is 5/0 and Spigot has no other help, he will probably hit the 1 damage 4 times, or Tooled Up he'll hit it 3 times and do 6 damage. 

If Spigot has 4 inf, he should always be tooling himself up before punching someone, unless there is a situation I've missed?

 

Commanding aura shifts it slightly in favor of the extra attack if Spigot can wrap since it generates additional momentum.

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7 minutes ago, MechMage said:

Commanding aura shifts it slightly in favor of the extra attack if Spigot can wrap since it generates additional momentum.

Yeah ok, I'd not considered the effect that would have. I'll remember that next game.

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Sorry youre right. I do most of my brewers math with commanding aura taken into account.  If spigot gets his set up he just wants to swing out. And if he gets a little set up he does more dmg than any player in guild. So its usually worth it to kd someone in aura for him to just slaughter. And the aura is usually enough on its own. 

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8 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Sorry youre right. I do most of my brewers math with commanding aura taken into account.  If spigot gets his set up he just wants to swing out. And if he gets a little set up he does more dmg than any player in guild. So its usually worth it to kd someone in aura for him to just slaughter. And the aura is usually enough on its own. 

I tend to do my maths at worse case, so with no additional set up and without the aura. My reasoning being that the Buffs should only help swing the numbers my way, but in Spigots case with his easy access to wraps, there is a flaw in that reasoning.

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1 hour ago, CurlyPaul said:

I tend to do my maths at worse case, so with no additional set up and without the aura. My reasoning being that the Buffs should only help swing the numbers my way...

So for a normal faction I would agree. But since Brewers are the synergy faction I'm not really sure I want to approach my games with a "buffs are just gravy" mindset.  Its good to know in a pinch what everyone's output is, but if you're trying to get optimal work out of them you have to focus on getting your combos off. For brewers specifically more than any other guild. If a lot of my brewers math is worst case scenarios over the course of a game, I'm just going to lose cause they are subpar without buffs. 

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3 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

So for a normal faction I would agree. But since Brewers are the synergy faction I'm not really sure I want to approach my games with a "buffs are just gravy" mindset.  Its good to know in a pinch what everyone's output is, but if you're trying to get optimal work out of them you have to focus on getting your combos off. For brewers specifically more than any other guild. If a lot of my brewers math is worst case scenarios over the course of a game, I'm just going to lose cause they are subpar without buffs. 

Absolutely agreed, and if he's in CA my Spigot will not be Tooling Up. I'm wondering now what other errors this creates in the Maths I've done for Brewers. 

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43 minutes ago, dtjunkie19 said:

Btw, just a reference. We are on day 2 of the spring fling and brewers were tied with alchemists and union for most played, and there is currently 1 Brewer going into day 2 undefeated. 

Nice! How about undefeated in the other guilds?

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2 hours ago, dtjunkie19 said:

Btw, just a reference. We are on day 2 of the spring fling and brewers were tied with alchemists and union for most played, and there is currently 1 Brewer going into day 2 undefeated. 

The question is... that player Jordan Nach? Seems like he's been playing brewers a lot on day 1 of events.

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7 minutes ago, Bisounours said:

The question is... that player Jordan Nach? Seems like he's been playing brewers a lot on day 1 of events.

Nope, he's playing Engineers and has lost one. It's @VanV.

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21 minutes ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

Nope, he's playing Engineers and has lost one. It's @VanV.

Wow nice! Props to him.

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9 minutes ago, Bisounours said:

Wow nice! Props to him.

Now lost to Corsair. Fish vs Alchemist final. Good whilst it lasted.

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8 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

So for a normal faction I would agree. But since Brewers are the synergy faction I'm not really sure I want to approach my games with a "buffs are just gravy" mindset.  Its good to know in a pinch what everyone's output is, but if you're trying to get optimal work out of them you have to focus on getting your combos off. For brewers specifically more than any other guild. If a lot of my brewers math is worst case scenarios over the course of a game, I'm just going to lose cause they are subpar without buffs. 

There's merit to both ways. I've put five INF on Tapper and sent him in and failed to trigger CA before which completely ruins my math for the rest of the turn, so it's important to understand the capabilities of your players with or without the buff.  If it's that important to the turn, then it may be worth just paying for it out of pocket instead of trying to trigger it on the charge.  And then there's those super weird instances where Tapper kills Harmony in two attacks and stands there with 3 INF left looking around for someone you could throw Mark Target on, and then scratch that little counter in your bag where you keep track of how many times you've actually cast Mark Target.  

I've also found lately that against teams like Fish, or even Masons where Flint casually counterscores, I've been hanging onto the ball the entire game if possible and scoring at the very end, which means I never get that extra goal INF to mitigate some of the issues, which is another point for PintPot.

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Update: Pat took Brewers to 2nd place (5-1) and I got 9th  (4-2) at spring fling for top Brewers. Mash is a beast and I only had problems protecting the ball against Alchemists and seaBrisket accounting for my losses. I had a really tight game vs vRage which I only won due to clock where the ball wasn't even touched.

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