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meep277

OKat vs VKat, when and where to take?

53 posts in this topic
On 11.04.2017 at 5:08 PM, TheCurkov said:

I might not have been clear on the exact situation I was talking about, but this "setup" should cost no more than 1 Influence. A reach model attacks Katalyst and knocks him down. Harry attacks that reach model knocks him down (which harry nearly always does) then attacks again and hits the 4 on his play book 2 damage double push and pushes the model into Katalyst. This is exactly the results that Harry would have taken if he was attacking the model one on one and arguably spent no extra influence but lets say one for arguments sake.

In my experience the KD isn't so reliable ;) When attaking a def4+ arm1 model (even with TAC7) getting the KD on first attack is not so obvious.

As far as competetive games go, I choose vKat there is always a weak link in the other team and I go for the Witness Me! kill and 2 goals.

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On 4/12/2017 at 6:07 AM, S_A_T_S said:

Where does Crucible fit into your team? By this I mean who do you play her with? vKat obviously swaps with oKat depending on your captain/strategy. To my mind she works best with oKat due to the burning/KD combo, so what does that 6 look like? Midas, Naja, Crucible, oKat, Vitriol, Harry? That's my list but I tend to take Compound instead of Crucible as a good battery and ball holder.

If only the roster went to 10, then I would be able to slot in Crucible - I like vKat for a Smoke list for when I just want to wail on someone. He was great against Butchers the other day alongside Calculus and Harry Blinding and Burning Fillet, even got a 6vp activation by taking out vOx and Meathook with Witness Me up.

I would pair her with Smoke and vKat, but your example is definitely pertinent. Calculus is just too good in that lineup, so she definitely trumps Crucible in lineups where I need to be more aggressive.

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On 4/10/2017 at 2:51 PM, TheCurkov said:

 

Kat2 will use the furious rule in competitive play 0-1 times per game.

 

 

That 1 is all you need. (Against the right teams)

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So, after many, many games with VKat, I've come to a couple conclusions. To start, he's basically Cosset. I should be using him as a last activation, first activation back to back player. Doing this, can net a 4 point take out, and inch me that much closer to 12. He's a good pick MOST of the time, in that every team has a "Weak Link" that you can exploit. I'm a huge fan, and love him so much. 

Rvianarpg likes this

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2 hours ago, meep277 said:

So, after many, many games with VKat, I've come to a couple conclusions. To start, he's basically Cosset. I should be using him as a last activation, first activation back to back player. Doing this, can net a 4 point take out, and inch me that much closer to 12. He's a good pick MOST of the time, in that every team has a "Weak Link" that you can exploit. I'm a huge fan, and love him so much. 

You said Most of the time! So, the question is, when you think is not to take him?

 

:) 

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5 hours ago, Rvianarpg said:

You said Most of the time! So, the question is, when you think is not to take him?

 

:) 

So, in my when not to take, I generally don't like putting him into Morticians, or Brewers line ups. Spooks, because Cosset & Obby can lure + Puppet master him right into their team, then the whole gang just beats him up. Brewers can put him on his rear really easily, and don't like being outside of a group or a big brawl. 

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47 minutes ago, meep277 said:

So, in my when not to take, I generally don't like putting him into Morticians, or Brewers line ups. Spooks, because Cosset & Obby can lure + Puppet master him right into their team, then the whole gang just beats him up. Brewers can put him on his rear really easily, and don't like being outside of a group or a big brawl. 

I'd reconsider taking him into Brewers.  It's true that they love beating him down, but most Brewers teams have to take one or two squishy models like Spigot and Friday.  If You can snare or knock down Friday with Midas or your Unionist, she's easy pickings and in a last/first activation, VetKat can very reliably eat Spigot on his own.  Brewers excel at the late game and with the big guys extra VP power, the Alchemists can ensure the game ends before the mid game.

I'd like to point out that Corsair is also a match up that VetKat should avoid.  Every reason not to play him into Brewers applies and Corsair has no weak links.

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4 hours ago, MechMage said:

I'd reconsider taking him into Brewers.  It's true that they love beating him down, but most Brewers teams have to take one or two squishy models like Spigot and Friday.  If You can snare or knock down Friday with Midas or your Unionist, she's easy pickings and in a last/first activation, VetKat can very reliably eat Spigot on his own.  Brewers excel at the late game and with the big guys extra VP power, the Alchemists can ensure the game ends before the mid game.

I'd like to point out that Corsair is also a match up that VetKat should avoid.  Every reason not to play him into Brewers applies and Corsair has no weak links.

My last tournament game into Brewers with Alchemist Vet Katalyst was able to take out Spigot and Friday in one activation...

I would agree with Fishermen generally being a poor time for him, especially Corsair. Lots of 2" Melee is generally very bad for him, as he can get crowded out easily and then his damaged just drops off a cliff. For that reason, I suspect Farmers might be a pain for him as well...

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11 hours ago, MechMage said:

I'd reconsider taking him into Brewers.  It's true that they love beating him down, but most Brewers teams have to take one or two squishy models like Spigot and Friday.  If You can snare or knock down Friday with Midas or your Unionist, she's easy pickings and in a last/first activation, VetKat can very reliably eat Spigot on his own.  Brewers excel at the late game and with the big guys extra VP power, the Alchemists can ensure the game ends before the mid game.

I'd like to point out that Corsair is also a match up that VetKat should avoid.  Every reason not to play him into Brewers applies and Corsair has no weak links.

That's a very good point. I played a game against my friends Coirsair fish, and decided to go into Jac, when Siren and Angel were close by, big mistake on my part. I do however, struggle using OKat, but he seems like he does some real work 100% of the time you give him a full book.

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How much of a pain is -1 or -2 TAC for crouding out when you're going for the third column 90% of the time? Also, when I'm confident that vetKat is the last/first activation I use 1 attack to KD the opponent and then even with even -2 TAC you're rather fine. BTW, on monday for the first time I managed to trigger Witness Me! from a counter attack on a model that I wasn't countering ;)

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4 minutes ago, Edek said:

How much of a pain is -1 or -2 TAC for crouding out when you're going for the third column 90% of the time? Also, when I'm confident that vetKat is the last/first activation I use 1 attack to KD the opponent and then even with even -2 TAC you're rather fine. BTW, on monday for the first time I managed to trigger Witness Me! from a counter attack on a model that I wasn't countering ;)

-1 or -2 tac on VetKat isn't all that bad usually, but every die lost slightly increases the chances of things going horribly wrong.  He has to hit the take out threshold or he's left a sitting duck with nothing better to do than give your opponent all the momentum he ever dreamed up before dying in shame.  When you've got to make 3 or 4 rolls to hit that third column, even a 15-20% chance of failure on any given roll should give you pause.

Congrats on the counter attack witness.  Those are pretty sweat when they happen although it sounds like your opponent made a terrible mistake letting you do it.

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6 hours ago, Edek said:

How much of a pain is -1 or -2 TAC for crouding out when you're going for the third column 90% of the time? Also, when I'm confident that vetKat is the last/first activation I use 1 attack to KD the opponent and then even with even -2 TAC you're rather fine. BTW, on monday for the first time I managed to trigger Witness Me! from a counter attack on a model that I wasn't countering ;)

It's the combined factor of losing TAC and not getting to charge anyone. Vet Katalyst's damage out putbdrops off dramatically if you fail to hit column 3 on an attack, if he can't charge, or if no one he can fight has a condition. A Corsair list is also likely to be crowding out with more than just 2 people...

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I know how vetKat's dmg drops if he fails to reach the third column. But if you get the last and first activation with vetKat then with 5 attack you kill almost everything without Tough Hide.

And as far as the counter-attack witness me goes. We both realised AFTER the attack that it doesn't only work in vetKat's activation ;) I guess he will remember that now ;)

BTW, with every game I wonder how people can take oKat over vKat. The amount of inf that oKat needs to bring 4VP is way more than vKat and I can't imagine playing alchemists without Witness Me! :)

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@Edek oKat and vKat fulfill different roles on the team.  oKat usually won't score as many VP as vKat (although he's better at scoring goals than he looks), but neither will he concede as many VP.  What's more, he'll prevent your opponent from scoring far more VPs than vKat will by checking key players and spreading fire to limit movement and drain momentum.

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On 2017-5-3 at 10:22 AM, Edek said:

And as far as the counter-attack witness me goes. We both realised AFTER the attack that it doesn't only work in vetKat's activation ;) I guess he will remember that now ;)

Just checking that you activated your heroic witness me on your activation, anticipating the counter? Remember you can't take some one out, then pay the mom. You had to activate it in your activation before the take out happened.

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On 2017-5-6 at 1:41 PM, Edek said:

Yeah, I did activate the heroic in vKat's activation ;) 

Like a boss :)

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I want vKat to work, but oKat just performs so much more reliably. Being able to be a source of conditions, rather than dependent on them. Having an effectively short play book for gang ups. And most importantly not relying on a charge to get a powerful activation. That's not even mentioning the defensive tech!

The only thing that vKat has going for him is the pace he can put on a game. I personally struggle to close out games, and having a witness me can get you to 12 a whole turn or more earlier than without it.

I guess oKat is there for a scrum, vKat for a sprint. 

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For me the shorter the game is the better. That's why I play always with vKat, he allows alchemists to end the game in 2 or 3 turns.

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I've really tried to get vKat to work and honestly he just doesn't click with me. I should probably be more patient or send him into different players but for the life of me I can't get on with him. 

oKat however, does so much for me every game. 

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4 hours ago, RTOAHB said:

I've really tried to get vKat to work and honestly he just doesn't click with me. I should probably be more patient or send him into different players but for the life of me I can't get on with him. 

oKat however, does so much for me every game. 

Thats the way I feel right now too, but I think I need to give vKat a little more table time. If I try to use him like he is oKat, he isn't going to be good. I need to switch up my thought process on him and really use him as laser guided missile, and not commit him until it is a guaranteed take out.

@TheCurkov, I know you dropped vKat from your 9 in favor of having all three C's in your flex spot. With the expansion to 10 players in the line up, are you going to bring him back?

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My current 10 looks like 

Midas, Smoke, Naja, Compound, Crucible, Vitriol, Calculus, oKat, vKat & Harry. 

If I'm honest I'm tempted to drop vKat for Flask, as I find he is a real boon for her. 

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I've had quite a lot of alchs games now and I struggle to pick o kat over vet kat. I love vet kat! I get my two goals and then witness. It isn't always easy I agree but i'm having a lot of fun with it :)

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I am certainly in the camp that's need a bunch more practice with him, he probably under performs due to lack of proper application and player skill more then anything. 

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