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meep277

OKat vs VKat, when and where to take?

53 posts in this topic

So, I love Veteran Katalyst. Last night, I ran him in a game against a Fillet Butchers team, and made some serious misplays, and he didn't really pull his weight. However, I feel like OKat could have done better. My Kickoff was with Vitriol along the side, and he responded with Meathook running up, and throwing a hook in her. I feel like, an External Combustion on a charge could have thrown her from the board. Could some more experienced players give me the full rundown on how to use VetKat, and OKat?

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Both Katalysts are pretty good.  In the right situation, vKatalyst is a bit stronger than oKatalyst if you don't make any misplays.  I struggle to think of a match up oKatalyst isn't a solid choice into.  I always delay my choice of Katalyst as long as possible and I'm always looking for a reason not to take vKatalyst, such as a lack of appealing witnesses or a player like Stave, Obulus or Corsair who can easily ruin vKatalyst's day.  If I can't find one, I take vKatalyst.

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By the time he's dragged in he's usually down 4-8 health, no defensive tech, if no conditions are out he has very low damage output.... he gets pretty wrecked

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I played him against Corsair yesterday and Corsair had a pretty hard time finishing him off without the rest of the scrum to help him.  That was a terrible list of mine though. I played Smoke and Crucible, and no Calculus, Mercury, or even Hemlock.  It was really bad lol.  I'm way out of the loop in GB though, and my main guys are the Brewers.  So this is pretty different.

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I never normally take vKat, as he is so easy to hit and so reliant on the opponent having conditions. OKat & Midas are great together with Harry, as the pushes and knockdowns just clear a path for you to move the ball around.

That said, I played in Stay Hammered in Thetford today, and in the last game played Fillet Butchers, not a match up I feel great in (hate Fillet so much, so broken). I decided to play a Smoke team as it was the last game of the day, and after 3 games of Midas/oKat (the previous 2 both being against Union) I felt like a change and thought if I lost with a team I was less familiar with might soften the blow (so confident). I kept vKat right back - only Smoke went more than 3" from my line the entire game, and she died immediately after scoring - damned Fillet). Blind and Burning (and careful placement of my team) kept Fillet on his line for 2 turns. He brough Brisket in close to generate MP so vKat charged her to pile on some damage (:KD: is a condition for Intensify and Chemical Fury - never forget this!). Vitriol piled in as well, letting Smoke kill Brisket with her legendary straight after returning. Smoke died top of turn 3 to Veteran Ox, who charges into Harry. Harry gets up, crazies, :KD: and :>>: Ox into Fillets charge lane to block any attack on vKat, Fillet tries to go around Harry for a goal but I save the counter for his penultimate hit and :>>: her out of range. vKat is then able to charge 2mm into vOx, keeping a burning poisoned Meathook in 3", kills vOK with a wrap, taking Meathook down to 1hp with Intensify, Witness Me! then spend 2 INF for a bought and Bonus Timed Intensify to finish Meathook off for a 6 VP activation.

It took a lot of reapplying conditions, neutralising Fillet, careful protection of vKat (terrain helped) and effectively sacrificing Smoke twice to get that tasty 6 point smash. I was tempted to charge his right across the board to halve Fillet's health at one point, but if I did that, vKat would have been annilhilated by half his team straight after. He needs a lot of support to get good work out of him, but he can make a massive difference in the right place at the right time.

I'd play Smoke/vKat into Masons due to their low DEF and melee zones, as well as burning hurting them a lot. Butchers, apparently, can be a good matchup. Hunters could be another match for vKat, but snared is going to hurt you. Other than that, I think Midas/oKat is probably better. Would vKat into Shark Fish be good? hey don't hit too hard so he could survive against them.

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Yeah, I think he'd get snared every game against Hunters.  Nothing better than a target that will actually let Blessing of the Sun Father go off.  I'd rather just play straight ball into the Hunters.

Sounds like a decent game though.  Did you end up winning it?

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19 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

I never normally take vKat, as he is so easy to hit and so reliant on the opponent having conditions. OKat & Midas are great together with Harry, as the pushes and knockdowns just clear a path for you to move the ball around.

That said, I played in Stay Hammered in Thetford today, and in the last game played Fillet Butchers, not a match up I feel great in (hate Fillet so much, so broken). I decided to play a Smoke team as it was the last game of the day, and after 3 games of Midas/oKat (the previous 2 both being against Union) I felt like a change and thought if I lost with a team I was less familiar with might soften the blow (so confident). I kept vKat right back - only Smoke went more than 3" from my line the entire game, and she died immediately after scoring - damned Fillet). Blind and Burning (and careful placement of my team) kept Fillet on his line for 2 turns. He brough Brisket in close to generate MP so vKat charged her to pile on some damage (:KD: is a condition for Intensify and Chemical Fury - never forget this!). Vitriol piled in as well, letting Smoke kill Brisket with her legendary straight after returning. Smoke died top of turn 3 to Veteran Ox, who charges into Harry. Harry gets up, crazies, :KD: and :>>: Ox into Fillets charge lane to block any attack on vKat, Fillet tries to go around Harry for a goal but I save the counter for his penultimate hit and :>>: her out of range. vKat is then able to charge 2mm into vOx, keeping a burning poisoned Meathook in 3", kills vOK with a wrap, taking Meathook down to 1hp with Intensify, Witness Me! then spend 2 INF for a bought and Bonus Timed Intensify to finish Meathook off for a 6 VP activation.

It took a lot of reapplying conditions, neutralising Fillet, careful protection of vKat (terrain helped) and effectively sacrificing Smoke twice to get that tasty 6 point smash. I was tempted to charge his right across the board to halve Fillet's health at one point, but if I did that, vKat would have been annilhilated by half his team straight after. He needs a lot of support to get good work out of him, but he can make a massive difference in the right place at the right time.

I'd play Smoke/vKat into Masons due to their low DEF and melee zones, as well as burning hurting them a lot. Butchers, apparently, can be a good matchup. Hunters could be another match for vKat, but snared is going to hurt you. Other than that, I think Midas/oKat is probably better. Would vKat into Shark Fish be good? hey don't hit too hard so he could survive against them.

Why would you need to Bonus time Intensify? It's an effect on Katalyst, so you don't need to roll to hit with it...

19 hours ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

Why would Corsair ruin vKat's day?

Tough Hide models in general ruin Vet Katalyst's day - instead of doing 4 damage on 3 hits, he does 2 damage. Add to that easy access to KD and multiple 2" melee models for crowding out and I've rarely seen Vet Katalyst achieve much against a Corsair list...

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6 hours ago, FearLord said:

Why would you need to Bonus time Intensify? It's an effect on Katalyst, so you don't need to roll to hit with it...

I thought that might be true but wasn't sure, so asked the pundit I was playing against if I needed to roll for the effect. He said yes, and as you need to roll to hit with AoEs, I thought it made sense. If it goes off from the playbook, sure, no roll, but I bought the effect with 2 INF.

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6 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

I thought that might be true but wasn't sure, so asked the pundit I was playing against if I needed to roll for the effect. He said yes, and as you need to roll to hit with AoEs, I thought it made sense. If it goes off from the playbook, sure, no roll, but I bought the effect with 2 INF.

It's not an AOE though, its a Pulse 3" that targets kat

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To be honest, I think vKat is way better than oKat ;) 2", better inf efficiency within the team, you play 2-1 with Witness Me! and if oKat gets knocked down with no enemies within 1" he has to remove conditions with momentum which means he is not on fire anymore and doesn't hit so hard anymore. I will admit though that oKat is easier to use and though hide doesn't hurt as much, but every single team has a model without tough hide and I try to go for them with vKat.

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OKat:

- good with Crucible (great at applying KD+Burn)

- better at controlling a scrum

- bad against teams that are good at KDing you (clearing conditions is pretty awful because it puts your fire out)

- bad against Vet Kat

VKat:

- good against footballing teams (the 2VPs they get often don't matter)

- great against OKat (he's always on fire, and is 3+/1 with 1" melee and no defensive abilities and a shorter threat range...)

- bad against teams which generate lots of momentum

- bad in long sustained fights - can be pinned down and not do much

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So, I played 3 games in a qualifier with VKat. I kinda used him like Cosset, where I'll just jump a player on my last activation, and then use him first to geek that player. I think that went pretty okay. I do however, seem to be using OKat incorrectly. I felt like he should be this big brawler that can take on a team, but he does get put down really fast. He seems like a side of the pitch winger type guy, who can really easily push models around and apply KD.

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There is a lot of misinformation on this thread and some things stated as fact that are just plain wrong. 

9 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

OKat:

- bad against teams that are good at KDing you (clearing conditions is pretty awful because it puts your fire out)

- bad against Vet Kat

VKat:

- good against footballing teams (the 2VPs they get often don't matter)

- great against OKat (he's always on fire, and is 3+/1 with 1" melee and no defensive abilities and a shorter threat range...)

- bad against teams which generate lots of momentum

- bad in long sustained fights - can be pinned down and not do much

Kat1 is countered by knock down but this is more mitigate-able than one might think. Popular tactics against knock down teams are using harry or vitriol to push an opponent into melee with an already knocked down Kat1. Or placing Harry's Molotov in the path that Kat1 will take to the enemy. This allows Kat1 to shake conditions then run through the Molotov to be back on fire.

Kat1 is fantastic against Kat2 to the point where I don't think you can play Kat2 into the mirror match. Lets do some math. If Kat2 charges (which he should never be able to do vs a good player) and has 2 influence his average damage to Kat1 is something like 13 damage. This assumes that there is no Def stance going on and there always should be. Kat1 has 27 boxes (more like 25-26 by the time they get to each other) that's a long leap to the 12+ boxes you are short to kill Kat1. and now your Kat 2 is engaged and scrumming for the rest of the game exactly where everyone agrees he is bad. Kat2 wants nothing to do with the katalyst vs katalyst fight.

The gods honest truth about Kat2 in competitive play is that he is a fine model but shares a name with one of the best models in the game and as a result is relegated to the bench.

Kat2 Has less effective hit points that Kat1 due to deteriorating. 

Kat2 will use the furious rule in competitive play 0-1 times per game.

Kat2 Cannot brawl at all to be effective he has to witness me on what ever he attacks.

His top end damage is severely limited due to his influence cap.

He requires setup.

 

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2 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread and some things stated as fact that are just plain wrong. 

 

To be fair, the same could be said about both of your posts in this thread - I am currently the second highest ranked Alchemist player in the world, and I use Veteran Katalyst in competitive play rather a lot actually, but I also use Smoke a lot as well...

You do make some good points about the amount of set up he needs though, and I tend to agree that Katalyst 1 is a much more reliable model, especially with Midas.

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I think effectively, either is viable. I find more success with VetKat. Mainly due to fear from my opponents. Worst case, I build momentum and heal him once a turn. set up a few conditions and then profit. 

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12 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

Kat2 will use the furious rule in competitive play 0-1 times per game.

 

 

Well, that is all you need IMO. 1 Witness Me kill and 2 goals is what i go for anyway. Even with Kat1 I don't think Alchemists should brawl after the offensive changes in Midas and Vitriol in S3.

Ale the tricks with setting Kat1 on fire or pushing opponents within 1" of Kat1 with Vitriol seems like wasting really great players just to justify using Kat1. 

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2 hours ago, Edek said:

Ale the tricks with setting Kat1 on fire or pushing opponents within 1" of Kat1 with Vitriol seems like wasting really great players just to justify using Kat1. 

Kind of confused on this - not sure why you're spending time setting oKat on fire unless you're having to clear his conditions a lot?  

As far as using Vit to push around, sure that's a waste.  But you have other team members, and someone like Harry or Compound is excellent for manipulating people into good spots for oKat...

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I was talking about a situation when Kat1 is knocked down and has no enemies within 1". Pushing enemies within 1" of a Knocked Down Kat1 has 1 issue, your opponent has an activation to respond.

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I like how TheCurkov talked about how VKat is worse because he requires setup, then described how the best way to deal with an issue as basic as a KD on OKat by spending a load of influence and the activations of two of your most useful players.

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2 hours ago, Edek said:

I was talking about a situation when Kat1 is knocked down and has no enemies within 1". Pushing enemies within 1" of a Knocked Down Kat1 has 1 issue, your opponent has an activation to respond.

Agreed, it does limit his effectiveness when he's knocked down.  And game conditions honestly dictate a lot of response.  But I've definitely been perfectly willing personally to clear conditions and just deal with the 6 dice; it sucks, but he still fairly reliably hits his knockdown on 2 and has accessible pushes.

I feel like oKat and vKat, despite sharing a name, are two very different tools.  vKat gives you some efficiency and 4 VPs on a takeout, but less raw utility than oKat to me.  oKat drives some of the locals I play with nuts due to repositioning, easy KD, and high HP, but vKat doesn't cater well to the way I like to board control.

The way you like/choose to play can alter their effectiveness a lot, just like any other tool.

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15 hours ago, FearLord said:

To be fair, the same could be said about both of your posts in this thread - I am currently the second highest ranked Alchemist player in the world, and I use Veteran Katalyst in competitive play rather a lot actually, but I also use Smoke a lot as well...

This is my bad for letting the Chicago arrogance slip into my tone. Unacceptable.

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I like how TheCurkov talked about how VKat is worse because he requires setup, then described how the best way to deal with an issue as basic as a KD on OKat by spending a load of influence and the activations of two of your most useful players.

I might not have been clear on the exact situation I was talking about, but this "setup" should cost no more than 1 Influence. A reach model attacks Katalyst and knocks him down. Harry attacks that reach model knocks him down (which harry nearly always does) then attacks again and hits the 4 on his play book 2 damage double push and pushes the model into Katalyst. This is exactly the results that Harry would have taken if he was attacking the model one on one and arguably spent no extra influence but lets say one for arguments sake.

But what if the enemies respond you say?

3 hours ago, Edek said:

I was talking about a situation when Kat1 is knocked down and has no enemies within 1". Pushing enemies within 1" of a Knocked Down Kat1 has 1 issue, your opponent has an activation to respond.

Well this is fairly difficult to do in one activation when you consider that the model we are talking about has already activated, but I will concede that another model could come over and push Katalyst twice to get him back out of melee. Overall I consider the influence expended to be minimal on our end or at least doing double duty.

If we are worried about them pushing Katalyst back out efficiently (say with their own Harry) we can do the Molotov plan.

Same situation Katalyst knocked down by a reach model. Harry activates and does what ever he was going to do but spends his last influence to drop a Molotov. The key here is to place it not on Katalyst but where you want Katalyst to be on his next turn. This allows you to shake conditions and still be on fire. And yes this is setup, but it amounts to +2 TAC for 1 influence and is dice-less.

I think that these setups pale in comparison to what has to be done to get Vet Katalyst functioning. Setting up Vet Katalyst typically costs more influence, is shake-able with momentum, and trying to use the furious rule against a good player is a nightmare.

At the end of the day Vet Katalyst is a fine model for casual play I was just trying to give the competitive perspective as I see it. 

 

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My experience with vKat is that the other team just ends up wanting him dead ASAP. I've been running oKat a lot more and I've come to the conclusion that I personally enjoy the oKat/Midas pair more than the vKat/Smoke pair. With Crucible available now, I've replaced vKat in my lineup with her, leaving me with: Midas, Smoke, Naja, Calculus, Compound, Crucible, oKat, Virtriol and Harry as my roster.

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7 hours ago, garruthc said:

My experience with vKat is that the other team just ends up wanting him dead ASAP. I've been running oKat a lot more and I've come to the conclusion that I personally enjoy the oKat/Midas pair more than the vKat/Smoke pair. With Crucible available now, I've replaced vKat in my lineup with her, leaving me with: Midas, Smoke, Naja, Calculus, Compound, Crucible, oKat, Virtriol and Harry as my roster.

Where does Crucible fit into your team? By this I mean who do you play her with? vKat obviously swaps with oKat depending on your captain/strategy. To my mind she works best with oKat due to the burning/KD combo, so what does that 6 look like? Midas, Naja, Crucible, oKat, Vitriol, Harry? That's my list but I tend to take Compound instead of Crucible as a good battery and ball holder.

If only the roster went to 10, then I would be able to slot in Crucible - I like vKat for a Smoke list for when I just want to wail on someone. He was great against Butchers the other day alongside Calculus and Harry Blinding and Burning Fillet, even got a 6vp activation by taking out vOx and Meathook with Witness Me up.

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