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Stephen78

Masons at the Rusty Cup

95 posts in this topic

So this weekend i decided to take masons to a 64 player event mainly because im fed up of the whinging on the forums about them being bottom tier and uncompetative.

To preface this, this is the first event ive played them in on a table, i havent been practicing with them and in my last event i won with morts.

My 9:

Honour, marbles (because worst mascot in game apparently), harmony, vet harmony, brick, flint, tower, mallet, granite.

Game 1 - Neil Pecket - Shark.

I was concerned with the fish match up as apparently its terrible. He played a standard line up if i remember and i kicked. Alas two day events and a lots happened since but 12-4 to me, prior to the game Neil was saying he has practiced a fair bit against masons so was fairly confident. I think 2 goals and 2 take outs.

 

Game 2 - Craig Butler - Midas

Craig was also someone ive not played before and another match up i was dreading, he was fairly confident especially as he chose to receive . His line up was vet kat, midas, naja, vitriol, harry and i think compound. I kicked and flint got a great scatter where he couldnt retrieve it just over the line on the opposite flank. Harmony retrieved i passed around to sup strat flint to score end turn 1, he kicks out to land on midas. Turn 2 i win initiative and honour manages to go in, engage compound, dodges to engage midas and tackles, tackles again after the counter and then shoots and scores 8-0, honour dodges to engage vet kat. Flint also has 4 sitting on him.

He kicks out and harry collects and passes to vitriol for the dodge. Marbles trundles over and bonus times a goad positioning so that if vitriol advances brick can counter charge. It ends with a 12-4 to masons after i take out vet kat and he times out.

 

Game 3 - Jamie Giblin - Ox.

He played ox, harry, truffles, boar, vet brisket, meathook. Jamie is fairly new with butchers but i played him in the final at the last event i went to. I kicked, he retrieved and passed around. A sup strat harmony with tooled up went into boar end turn 1 and left him on 6 boxes or so, i won initiative. Harmony went first and finished him off and came back to safety going 2-0 up. He brought Ox and meathook in with the ball on vet brisket. Bit of a scrum in the middle working aound the double counter charges. I won initiative dodged marbles to engage ox and honour and harmony killed him before he could legendary. Trying to remember the rest of the game but i won 12-4, he scored and i killed meathook, and scored and he times out but im in position to kill harry if game continues.

 

Game 4 - David Mustin - Blackheart.

I havent played much against union in a while so was pretty concerned going into this. He picked blackheart, strongbox, harry, decimate, rage, minx (i think). He won the roll and elected to kick with blackheart. I collected the ball and tried to set up a cage, blackheart legendaried and came in and ping ponged to get the ball and some MP. He elected not to shoot due to crowding outs, and models in path.

Blackheart goes first and generates some mp and scores and i play vengeance. I kick out and black heart dies to honour etc. He comes in with a few things but counter charges etc cause issues. I end up winning initiative a couple turns by +5 and kill harry and decimate and then rage. He times out and i score to finish 12-4. 

 

Game 5 - Bryce Johnston - Shark.

He plays sakana, salt, siren, greyscales, hag and shark. I won initiative and elect to kick with mallet.

He collects and positions ball around ending on shark. Harmony had 3, mallet 3 and honour 6, id moved harmony up 6 as first activation. Shark receives the ball centrally and honour sup strat harmony, dodges her and legendaries and linked play. Harmony charges sharke who elects to counter (no def stance, he had 2mp at this point). 

Harmony at tac 10 with mom tackle on 1 rolls 1x 4 and whiffs. He counters and dodges away. This was going to be a trend fo this game. Harmony acrobatics back, tackles, damages momentously and back to the shdows to within 4 of brick with the ball.

Shark now comes in and engages marbles, brick and harmony. Hits brick who declares a counter. Shark fluffs the roll due to cover, crowding and poor dice. Brick lines up and also whiffs the counter getting no hits. Shark ping pongs and tackles to take a shot on goal on 3 dice and scores, dodging away. I play vengeance on him. Kick out which goes a little of plan but mallet gets it and runs, passes to honour and dodges to now be in range of sakana who he hits and gemerates mp to win initiative.

Honour goes first and drops the ball onto harmony, due to shark standing 1mm to far into rough ground has to charge him for range rather than walk (could have passed dodged to similar effect). Shark counters, honour gets 4 after arm so has to burn the veng token to get the kd and 2mom damage. She wails on shark taking all the damage and leaves him on 6hp. Linked play and i decide to drop the ball onto marbles (seduce!) And harmony finishes shark off and i have a stack of mp, 2-4.

He has to come in to retrieve the ball and after lots of working out greyscales comes in and he generates mp. Hes unable to get the ball due to crowdings and cover but we finish the turn with marbles out of cover, over 1" from greyscales who is engaged by brick and mallet and has harmony over 1". He wins initiative from siren hitting mallet with crowd outs and getting a wrap with seduce and dodge etc. Dice roll +2 or +3. 

Greyscales has 4 and tries to get the ball but fails due to a couple of poor rolls and crowding. Honour walks and then dodges in and push/dodges him to be engaged by marbles and 2 others and kills him.

Middles of game is bit confusing but shark comes back on and grabs the ball and scores again and legendaries catching my whole team. I was at 4mp at this point - i kick out to the left flank and get a 1/6 scatter which puts the ball behind my lines so no more mp for me which is really what screws me over.

Remainder of that turn honour and harmony kill 1 players but cant generate mp and take the score to 6-8 and he has +1mp. If the ball was over the line id be hugely up on mp and flint would get the ball and hes unlikely to score.

He rolls a 6 for initiative when at +1 and salt collects the ball, where you go etc and passes to siren who has returned to the pitch, fails the pass but scatters to her. Honour and harmony link and kill shark and go into hag. Honour whiffs a roll to damage hag at tac 8 or so and they leave her on 1 box. 

Sakana uses 4 and generates some mp, i cant get the ball and although i could kill hag with flint who has 4, if i do it stops there being a player in the way. Siren passss to returned grey scales who dodges forward just outside flints threat range. Grey scales does his stuff and is just in range of the goal and takes a bonus timed shot  (3dice player in way) and scores to win the game. Had it missed i had mp to go first and kill hag on 1 and sakana start of next turn through linked or alternatively position to link score a goal from flint retrieving and passing to honour/hamony after the missed shot. Final score 12-8 to Bryce.

Due to not killing hag i dropped to 6th instead of 3rd overall.

 

Whilst we both had some proper screwy dice, we both adapted recovered well, a couple of crucial moments like the kick scatter i think cost me the game. Bryce played it very well and ended the game on 5min with myself on 12, but a tight game and well deserved win for him

 

Summary.

 

This is short and sweet, anyone who states masons arent competative is just plain wrong. They have answers, amd tend towards a 2-2 finish. Just play more and play better.

I played a core of 5 players - honour, harmony, flint, marbles, brick and then swapped mallet, tower depending on what i was facing. Whilst keen to play granite due to my opponents line ups i didnt think she'd do to much. Vet harmony was for smoke and condition heavy which i didnt face.

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Steve is absolutely too kind here about the final, I played worse than he did, but got away with it. The dice were skewy on both sides, but he definitely got the worst of it. That scatter behind his own goal line with no model available to retrieve was absolutely brutal, that roll likely cost him the game. 

I had a blast, it was a cracking, very close game that ultimately Steve's dice managed to edge out for me. Very good tournament all in all, with five good games against really sound people. 

I'd already been thinking about Masons before, but after seeing more of their tricks in this game, I'm picking them up and giving them a run out to see how I do. Looking forward to scoring first turn Wrecker goals already! 

 

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4 minutes ago, TheLieutenant said:

Looking forward to scoring first turn Wrecker goals already! 

Rollerball is pure cheat!

+2"/+2" for free, doesn't lose possession of the ball... How does the crazy armadillo manage to pull that off, I wonder?! I'd say "that's not the ball" thing shouldn't keep the ball either, even if that sounds too ballsy. :P 

Oh and why does he get Ramming Speed for free as well - at least make him spend that 1 inf!

As you can tell, I really love Wrecker...  

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Was a good post, but the whole vibe of "Get Good" sort of ruined it. Well done on a solid tournament though.

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Stephen great to read the report. We played at the Losers guild event earlier this month where you rolled over my masons. It was also nice that you smashed Neil, he is a great guy and another in our group in Edinburgh.

I know you rated the double counter charge highly, was there any game you decided it might not be great? I know sometimes I find brick difficult to use into fish.

Neil said he was on the back foot from turn 2, do you play quite aggressively moving up the pitch or wait for them? how did you keep the ball away?

how do you find the tower v mallet choice? do you just choose tower for the tough hide/ KD sides or does it just depend?

Sorry for all the questions just really interested.

 

Cheers

 

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I played the double counter charge every game for 2 reasons. It allowed me to control areas of the board and force my opponent to bring players in to tie them up to stop a counter charge (which i could then take out) and it also eat my opponents clock. 3 of the 5 games my opponents clocked and in the final Bryce was down to 5min where all of his other games he'd won in 20min.

Brick in cover and not at the front is where i try and place him with marbles ahead and to one side. Scenery and opponent dependent.

I am naturally quite an aggressive player but masons are a counter punch team in general. Against the alchemists i saw the opportunity to play aggressive and it gave me an 8-0 lead with the first goal on 5 dice and the second on 3. I did make a slight positional mistake which meant i needed a 5 to score as i blocked LOS to the goal, but it should have been 3dice on 4's. However it was still a 70% chance to go 8 - 0 up so well worth it.

Against fish its understanding seduce, to engage the player with the ball so if they seduce it reduces kick dice and positioning so harmony has issues with the counter charge. Also putting the ball on marbles for his low kick. Shark is tough but its again making him work to position to stop the counter and minimising the odds of him getting and scoring. In that game i used flint as a goal keeper to be in the way twice to try and reduce the chance of success.

 

The mallet/tower question comes down to a couple of things. Do i want the extra 2" reach, singled out or kicked shins....against fish i do. Do i want a reliable kd...against vet kat i did, and again kicked shins and singled out in midas are gold. Against butchers or brewers id run tower. The tooled up and anti kd tech. If i played corsair id run tower for the same reason.

 

Part of the reason i didnt put the ball on flint against fish is seduce, but hes still a reliable counter goal threat which is why i picked him. People under estimate the damage output of masons, with their control elements (counter charge and goad) they can play the melee game well. I need to try granite into blackheart because i think she is good against the super solo without light footed when combined with a counter charge bubble. It works well into fillet as she has to burn inf to get into range

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I havent played wrecker yet but he does look good and a lot of fun. 

I played marbles as hes apparently rubbish, whereas id say probably the best mascot in the game. Sic em is brill for him, great playbook, loved creature and goad...and counter charge.....with assist so you have to tie him up is just filth. And if someone thinks they are smart and engages with 2" melee walk him out and back in to 1" for the free strike (if they dont have a low kd) and watch honour go to town. Lots of players will forget and just naturally take the free strike.

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Love to see you play in person, to learn a few things.  

 

I think people do underestimate Masons damage output, if Momentum is not something to aim for I go for the high damage output.  I have been clumsy in the past and not got the proper set up to give me the buffs when Honour attack so she isn't getting the potential that she needs.  

 

Good tip on seduce.  

 

3 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

And if someone thinks they are smart and engages with 2" melee walk him out and back in to 1" for the free strike (if they dont have a low kd) and watch honour go to town. Lots of players will forget and just naturally take the free strike.

What do you mean by this?  Parting Blow?  

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Very true, my mistake. Not triggered on an advance. Still can put people in a difficult position. Often i have to use honour to dodge him in to engage. Whilst against most targets its the same damage output of 6x 2mom dam, or 4x 2mom (+1assist) it sets uo next turn and if your going for the kill youll hit higher results at tac 8

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2 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

People often engage marbles over his 1" but in their 2". Walk out of 2" to trigger parting blow when they dont have a kd and continue the move back into 1". As if they choose a parting blow they can only  choose a damage result. 

 

2 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

Loved Creature doesn't trigger on parting blows though.

^

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Thanks for the reply, it always interesting seeing someone's take on it. Its always good to see them being played well, just a shame you have got Bryce playing them now!

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Not a bad thing having one of the designers playing a team. Also bear in mind that people play teams differently.....what i mean by that is that i am often told i play a team completely differently from how most people do, but it seems to work for me. I think one of the greatest strengths a team can have is versatility because you can adapt as situations change as long as you pick the right options or force your opponent to pick poor ones.

 

As an example, playing a Shark team into s brisket and i go for 2 take outs and 2 goals winning 12-0. (Shark, tentacles, siren, hag, sakana and jac).

 

Without waxing lyrical, to win more with teams that arent so point and click, present your opponent poor options and force them into a position where there arent really any good ones. An example would be if they score, can you to kill the ball for 2 or 3 turns allowing you to play your game and get take outs (and vp) and win initiative. Controlling the flow of the game and initiative can be critical.....if they are aware that this is an option for you,  do they then score...or hold off till later. Often players that have inf and cant do anything that turn people just move up but you need to think ahead and what that players threatening for future turns or what will it give away if your opponent goes first, will it allow them to farm mp and pull you out of position. All of these things start to eat into the clock which is an added pressure....so being aware of the game state at all times and whats still to activate and what it can achieve will improve your games.

 

I hear on podcasts that some people have a plan each turn, and this leads to tunnel vision. Reassess your objectives constantly, and dont be afraid to give up points if it puts you in a stronger position long term.

Some of my games i allowed my opponent to score when if i had wanted to i could have possibly stopped it.Why...because it eat up so much of their clock, cost lots of their mp and advanced my position after it....puting the ball back into play and allowing me a 6pt activation through linked. If i had tried to stop it, i would have spent a long time doing it, with a smaller chance of success and would have resulted in a longer game with the overall outcome not as much in my favour.

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@Stephen78 would this make you play more with Masons or will you go back to your previous Guild? 

 

I can see you are a top player and with good vision you proved Masons can be competitive.  It seems like Masons aren't that appealing to the top players.  Even Brewers are very strong in tournaments, once you get their synergy going.  What do you think will attract top players from the likes of Fishermen, Union, Alchemist and etc moving to the Masons? 

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Honestly i think its two things. A teams playstyle and the current meta which shifts.

Teams obviously have slightly better and slightly worse match ups as a general rule.

I played with fish and alchs season 1 but grew bored of shark quickly and midas wasn't as fun for my opponents being quite a negative experience. With season 2 and the changes i played hunters a little and mainly smoke and then scapel who i felt was underplayed and good into most things apart from fillet who was prevalent  (though does have game into her).

I have and do play every team though not too much with brewers as they dont really seem to suit my playstyle or engineers as again its a playstyle thing. (Although mother hoist interaction is fun).

 

I think competative players are drawn to teams that minimise the odds of things happening and can recover from things going wrong. Engineers in season 1 could be frustrating to play against if all of their character plays hit, but one fail could cost you the game.....so a team which can minimise the need or reliance on dice. 

Fish are a good example as they counter a non fish scoring team by being able to score faster and get the ball back, 2" melee, mom dodges on 1 and you control the engagement with speed. At the same time this is also a shark teams weakness...they can only do one thing (albeit very well). If you can stop them you win. So for me obulus is great into shark....counter their scoring and positional play very well. However because of the speed that fish can score they can recover normally from a miss or two....obs also has game into corsair as does scapel.

Some teams have a low skill entry level like fish and to some degree alchs with vet kat....these are more point and click teams which i account for part of their current popularity. Masons require a higher entry point and ultimately the top end play is much more positional and fore thought. All 3 of the teams have a high skill ceiling cap, and i think steamforged have done a great job of trying to balance teams at different skill levels.

 

So to answer your question, i honestly dont know. If the meta shifts a little from alchs which is probably their toughest match up i think you might see more. Also the playstyle is probably quite a big factor....whilst i can play all teams, i certainly get more personal satisfaction playing some over others.

One other consideration might be said to be how taxing playing the team is. Point and click style teams require less thought in some games depending on who you are playing, masons probably dont fit that category. The popularity of teams over the seasons seems to back this up....super solo style. Midas s1, fillet +obulis s2, shark now. I think all of the popular teams deemed the most competative were where ONE player was loaded up every turn. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Stephen78 said:

Very true, my mistake. Not triggered on an advance. Still can put people in a difficult position. Often i have to use honour to dodge him in to engage. Whilst against most targets its the same damage output of 6x 2mom dam, or 4x 2mom (+1assist) it sets uo next turn and if your going for the kill youll hit higher results at tac 8

A little trick I have used to great effect several times. Most people don't see it coming and it makes hitting that sweet "2 net hits" spot against 4/1 and 5/0 models a lot more reliable.   

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10 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

 

One other consideration might be said to be how taxing playing the team is. Point and click style teams require less thought in some games depending on who you are playing, masons probably dont fit that category. The popularity of teams over the seasons seems to back this up....super solo style. Midas s1, fillet +obulis s2, shark now. I think all of the popular teams deemed the most competative were where ONE player was loaded up every turn. 

 

 

Well Honour rarely gets less that 6 influence in my games. So what makes Shark/Midas a better super solo?

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I didnt say they were better. All 3 of them do a similar thing. 

6 on honour allows you to support your team or to do something with honour. Very similar to 6 on midas or shark....

Only difference is that shark and midas can turn their 6 into a goal more easily than honour, conversley honour can kill much easier than either of those two

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1 minute ago, Stephen78 said:

I didnt say they were better. All 3 of them do a similar thing. 

6 on honour allows you to support your team or to do something with honour. Very similar to 6 on midas or shark....

Only difference is that shark and midas can turn their 6 into a goal more easily than honour, conversley honour can kill much easier than either of those two

I agree. Masons seem to be able to switch more easily between footballing and killing but that also makes them a bit more difficult to master as you need to know when to switch gears. 

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