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Stephen78

Masons at the Rusty Cup

95 posts in this topic
12 hours ago, S_A_T_S said:

I'm interested to see how your experiments with Hammer go, as I enjoy playing with him more than I do with Honour. I can't quite explain why, but it might just be that he's easier to play - less tricks and hard thinking to do, and even though he can be a blunt instrument, that 2/8" kick along with Ball Hog can surprise your opponent and get you goals. He can also be a ball retriever for a slow team. I never leave home without Flint, who wants to score T1, so I need someone else to pick it up from the kick off, which is either Minx or Hammer.

Recently I've been playing with Marbles and Brick supporting him, and between them those two can control an entire flank while the other 4 move away to score or lay the smack down. I've found that there are increasing times when it is better to waste INF and do nothing than to launch someone into the unknown for 1-2 MP or damage. Holding back Brick and wasting his 2 INF in a game against Morts the other day would have prevented Scalpel getting a TO and goal the next turn (Goad with Brick 4" behind Marbles out of Scalpels range is nasty).

I'm considering dropping Honour and Harmony for a Hammer-only list, which would free up two spaces in an already tight list, possibly letting me take a 2nd mascot and vHarmony for Alchemist games (used her at weekend, and she save Mallet from vKat twice, removing conditions several times and taking a couple of hit for him to keep him alive long enough to heal and beat down vKat for Brick and vHarmony to finish off).

I also used to never leave home without Flint (for the turn 1 goals) but the more I played him the more he just does not fit my play style. As you could probably gather in my post, I like the beaty side of the game and for me Flint is just too weak. Chisel unfortunately also suffers from this and will probably only see time against a shark fish team.

But, if I do face off against a team that will out beat me then I will most certainly put Flint on the pitch, it's just the teams I seem to be facing at the moment are football orientated and I certainly don’t mind beating them up.

As you mentioned Hammer is definitely a goal threat and the one goal I have scored from the tournament so far has been from him, but there is also Wrecker and Minx. Yeah their kick stats are rubbish, but they are rapid. 10" sprint for a rollerballed Wrecker (and the fact he can push 1" melee players out of the way with impunity) and a 9" sprint for Minx gets them into tap in range quite easily if an opportunity for a goal appears.

But for me I tend to hold onto the ball behind a wall of beaters and make my opponent work hard for their goal. This is where kicking off with granite and utilising fast ground aids in this as you set up to one side of the pitch. Stick the ball handler in the corner (tends to be wrecker initially) and wait as the other team have to somehow get to the ball through a wall of Granite, Mallet, Tower and Hammer with Minx nearby to either stab and run or aid in crowed outs. This was one of the (many) reasons why I lost my sole match to date in the tournament, as my opponent elected to kick instead with Obulous which forced me to deploy a touch spread out (plus Obulous is a pain).

I am also prepared to concede the first goal if they get it off of granite (or granite fails to get the ball), but from there on getting the ball off of me will not be an easy task, this includes having to drop it in a corner if its Obulous or Corsair/Siren I am facing.

Vet Harmony definitely needs to be in the roster just for that chance you face off against a smoke alchemist team or even a hunters team if they are going condition strong. Her synergy with Granite is also really good.

Brick and marbles are also really good but feel like they can disrupt the flow in how I play as they can take a bit of setup, hence why I have not included them in my list for this tournament.

One opinion I do have though, is that if you going for a double captain team, than brick and marbles have to be part of that, which rules out wrecker as having 2 captains and 2 mascots is just too limiting for a roster.

I tried to mix Hammer team models (Wrecker, Granite, Tower, Vet Harmony and Minx) with Honour and what I found was you are basically neutering Honour. Honour has the ability to be an absolute murder machine but she needs the monkey, and when you have the monkey you need brick, and when you have Honour you need original Harmony for the tricks she brings.

So Hammer can fit into an Honour team ok (Brick, Mallet, Flint, Marbles and Tower) but Honour can't really fit into a Hammer team. So if you want to play Wrecker, Granite, Vet Harmony and even Minx like I do then a single captain makes more sense. Just seems to flow better, rather than trying to push square bricks into round holes.

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3 hours ago, Monolith-Swats said:

.

I tried to mix Hammer team models (Wrecker, Granite, Tower, Vet Harmony and Minx) with Honour and what I found was you are basically neutering Honour. Honour has the ability to be an absolute murder machine but she needs the monkey, and when you have the monkey you need brick, and when you have Honour you need original Harmony for the tricks she brings.

So Hammer can fit into an Honour team ok (Brick, Mallet, Flint, Marbles and Tower) but Honour can't really fit into a Hammer team. So if you want to play Wrecker, Granite, Vet Harmony and even Minx like I do then a single captain makes more sense. Just seems to flow better, rather than trying to push square bricks into round holes.

 

Whilst I agree Hammer needs Minx more than Honour, I think Minx is an ok Honour pick in some situations. Kind of feel like Hammer also wants Flint because Hammer feels like a captain that is in between 1-4 or 2-2. 

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4 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

 

Whilst I agree Hammer needs Minx more than Honour, I think Minx is an ok Honour pick in some situations. Kind of feel like Hammer also wants Flint because Hammer feels like a captain that is in between 1-4 or 2-2. 

I personally agree with this, or at least this is how i generally play him. Not only because of the current stat of the game being geared more towards scoring but also to make my opponent make difficult decisions. Ex: Hammer is stacked with inf but Flint has ball or is near ball carrier which are they going to try and save. I find it interesting and a little encrouraging that @Monolith-Swats is able to play a complete ball denial/beatdown list and still be successful. To see a list where Flint isnt an autoinclude would be something id have a very difficult time running.

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1 hour ago, Lord Antoine said:

I personally agree with this, or at least this is how i generally play him. Not only because of the current stat of the game being geared more towards scoring but also to make my opponent make difficult decisions. Ex: Hammer is stacked with inf but Flint has ball or is near ball carrier which are they going to try and save. I find it interesting and a little encrouraging that @Monolith-Swats is able to play a complete ball denial/beatdown list and still be successful. To see a list where Flint isnt an autoinclude would be something id have a very difficult time running.

Well I never felt he was an auto-include with Honour. Especially against teams with female beaters (Fillet, Scalpel, Gutter, Decimate) he kinds of melt away. But I'm seeing him more and more as a tool to influence the tempo of the game. 

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It is weird to read several well thought, neat, experience backed arguments in a row about models, lineups that most of the community labels as garbage. Am I still on the Internet? :) 

Keep them coming!

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For what it's worth, I've found the most success going for the 2-2 with Hammer. Flint doing Flint things opens up a lot of space and time for Hammer.

Avarisse and Greede has also been pretty sweet, adding an extra goal threat/low kd/singled out/mom damage.

Mallet is also a staple in my Hammer lists. For 2"(3") reach, setup, and his aura to help Hammer pass the ball more safely.

Last spot I've been running more as a flex slot. Most often Tower or Brick, but sometimes Chisel or vHarmony (and Granite for testing so far)

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Warpstoned said:

For what it's worth, I've found the most success going for the 2-2 with Hammer. Flint doing Flint things opens up a lot of space and time for Hammer.

Avarisse and Greede has also been pretty sweet, adding an extra goal threat/low kd/singled out/mom damage.

Mallet is also a staple in my Hammer lists. For 2"(3") reach, setup, and his aura to help Hammer pass the ball more safely.

Last spot I've been running more as a flex slot. Most often Tower or Brick, but sometimes Chisel or vHarmony (and Granite for testing so far)

 

 

I also like the thought of Chisel with Hammer. Hammertime could make her quite the beater with a very decent threat range. A bit of glass cannon but OK. And Hammertime also can solve a few problems for Granite. I'd consider vHarmony if she had anything to separate her from melee. Momentous dodge on 2 results with tac 5 just doesn't do it for me. Shadowlike?

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20 minutes ago, HuggyTheBear said:

I also like the thought of Chisel with Hammer. Hammertime could make her quite the beater with a very decent threat range. A bit of glass cannon but OK. And Hammertime also can solve a few problems for Granite. I'd consider vHarmony if she had anything to separate her from melee. Momentous dodge on 2 results with tac 5 just doesn't do it for me. Shadowlike?

I would really like her to have acrobatics. It would tie her thematically with her original version too.

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19 minutes ago, Warpstoned said:

I would really like her to have acrobatics. It would tie her thematically with her original version too.

I think you need to differentiate between the versions. Both having acrobatics might push oHarmony out of the picture. So that's why I suggested the poor mans version :-D. 

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15 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

Well I never felt he was an auto-include with Honour. Especially against teams with female beaters (Fillet, Scalpel, Gutter, Decimate) he kinds of melt away. But I'm seeing him more and more as a tool to influence the tempo of the game. 

Maybe, but even against all female teams i dont think ive ever had Flint not do work. He just becomes more of a Kicker glass cannon, you want to trade my 4 point goal for your 2 point take out thats fine by me, he'll be back next turn. I usually also position him instances like that towards a flank towards the enemy teams line away from everyone else, if they want to take him out they will have to move into the boonies or backwards to do it.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Antoine said:

Maybe, but even against all female teams i dont think ive ever had Flint not do work. He just becomes more of a Kicker glass cannon, you want to trade my 4 point goal for your 2 point take out thats fine by me, he'll be back next turn. I usually also position him instances like that towards a flank towards the enemy teams line away from everyone else, if they want to take him out they will have to move into the boonies or backwards to do it.

isn't 4 + 1 inf for 2vp the stock standard trade for a goal anyway? barring knee slider and/or second wind shenanigans

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9 minutes ago, Napoleon said:

isn't 4 + 1 inf for 2vp the stock standard trade for a goal anyway? barring knee slider and/or second wind shenanigans

I think there are more exceptions to this "rule". 8" Kick + 4" Dodge from Run the Length! is usually enough to not guarantee an immediate retaliation TO (not to mention 10" Kick stats). We also have the good old last activation Goal + winning next turn's initiative pattern.

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1 hour ago, Lord Antoine said:

Maybe, but even against all female teams i dont think ive ever had Flint not do work. He just becomes more of a Kicker glass cannon, you want to trade my 4 point goal for your 2 point take out thats fine by me, he'll be back next turn. I usually also position him instances like that towards a flank towards the enemy teams line away from everyone else, if they want to take him out they will have to move into the boonies or backwards to do it.

I'm not disputing this at all. Flint definitely is growing on me. 

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16 hours ago, HuggyTheBear said:

I'm not disputing this at all. Flint definitely is growing on me. 

I always announce him as... "The ONE.  The ONLY!" :P

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Flint is amazing.  If he scores he can tie enemy models in so your other models have room to maneuver.  I'm happy to let him roam in the oppositions half.   

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So ran Hammer into Tapper and Shark. He felt less powerful into Brewers and better into Shark than I thought. He is stronger than I initially thought but still hard to wrap my head around. I do think Minx is very important for him. 

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Hi huggy,

 

Sorry missed the post. At irish masters i took

Honour, harmony, brick, flint, tower, mallet, marbles.

I also had vet harmony, granite, hammer but i didnt play any of these 3.

 

It was a 4 round event and i played into 2 engineers and 2 alchemists. Unfortunately lost in the final, partly due to a little unfortunate luck, and on reflection i did have an out and i misplayed it slightly.

Alchemists are for me the hardest match up with masons and something i need more practice with. Hopefully i can still qualify for worlds at the british champs or steamcon

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On 20-6-2017 at 9:43 AM, Stephen78 said:

Hi huggy,

 

Sorry missed the post. At irish masters i took

Honour, harmony, brick, flint, tower, mallet, marbles.

I also had vet harmony, granite, hammer but i didnt play any of these 3.

 

It was a 4 round event and i played into 2 engineers and 2 alchemists. Unfortunately lost in the final, partly due to a little unfortunate luck, and on reflection i did have an out and i misplayed it slightly.

Alchemists are for me the hardest match up with masons and something i need more practice with. Hopefully i can still qualify for worlds at the british champs or steamcon

No Union?

And good luck with British champs and steamcon

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Nope, no union. Generally i dont think they need any. Minx is great with hammer but i find you drop some utility.

 

Certainly can fit one in to fit your play style. 

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