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Woldie

Vs Fish

I'm slowly starting new S3 threads for each of the other guilds, and, since I will be facing two Shark coaches over the next week, I thought now would be a good time.  

So what do y'all think? I've been toying with the idea of bringing Gutter in my 9, hoping that her 2" reach, speed, Chain Grab and Anatomical Precision might prove useful, but I've grown very comfortable with both A&G and Harry.  I'm also assuming vSpig is just a no-go vs Fisherman - especially since oSpig can help in the team more.  And then there is Stave.

Any other thoughts?

SCArmoury likes this

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Fish Player Here.

The first thing you need to figure out how to mitigate is what you are going to do on Shark's Legendary turn. You will want to have at least a few players who can deal damage at range or have somewhat reasonable speed, otherwise you are going to find yourself with a really unfun turn. Whenever I play against Brewers it seems I always run into Esters for this reason. Harry is also not terrible against us for a Moltov thrown at someone's feel (not on them, but in front of them). Stoker too.

The second thing you need to think about is what is your plan for killing the ball. If you kick off to a shark who knows what he is doing it is very hard not to find yourself on the wrong end of 8-0/8-2. If you can't kill it, you're not going to be able to get take outs faster than us and you certainly aren't going to outscore Shark. Who is gonna hold it or where are they going to stand? I've played more than one game of chase Scum around. I also have seen Esters be an OK ball holder, due to Glut Mass, once Shark has activated.

jahatch28 likes this

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So something more along the lines of Esters/Scum/Stoker/oSpig/Pintpot/Harry, perhaps?

tehlon likes this

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4 hours ago, Woldie said:

I'm slowly starting new S3 threads for each of the other guilds...

This is what I was trying to go for with the 'Stuck Fermentation' thread.  :)

I find the Shark lead Fish most challenging at present. I can usually hold my own, that is I'm normally not 'too concerned' when I'm matched-up with a Fishermen player. However, I have a friend who is particularly good with Shark and winning a game against him seems nigh impossible (not just to me and my Brewers either). He really does hate Stave though...;)

For me, completely killing the ball is difficult because if I see an opportunity to score, I'll go for it. Just as I tend to see an easy take-out like a starving lion would a wounded gazelle. Just. can't. resist. This usually works well.. but not with Shark. If I score then it's often answered, even if I'm careful with activations. If I take the dangling take-out bait, it seems I'm using resources for a 'measly 2 vp,' and I'm marching along in slow progression, uphill in a headwind.  

The problem with Esters is the same as any Brewer with a 1" melee. Sure, she can GM one attack, but with all the 2" on the Fish, it's just a minor inconvenience. Further, her 2" MOV buff is largely mitigated when you're gut and stringed and caught in the net. With a 2" team, you can at least counter for pushes or KD, or a T on occasion-- that is, if there's no double-dodge selected.

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Sharks Fish are a very tough match up for Brewers.

Tapper (low KD on counter) and Mash (UM) are probably the best place to try killing the ball after the inevitable first turn score. Add in Hooper and Harry for a total of four 2" reach models; oSpigot and Scum round out the team - maybe replace oSpigot with Stave (Fish are the only match up I'd recommend him in). 

Try and position models so any Fish player trying to tackle the ball suffers Crowd Outs, try using  Harry's Goad to keep Shark away from the ball. 

Biggest threat after Shark is oSiren because she'll abuse the Brewers low DEF and retrieve the ball at range - this is where Esters is better because a couple of Tooled Up Blasted Earths hurt the fragile Fish.

In a draft format suggest Scum-Harry-Mash-Hooper-oSpigot - if not facing oSiren Tapper; otherwise Esters.

Sorry for the ramble - Grampa GenX's age-addled brain does that sometimes. 

 

jahatch28 and SCArmoury like this

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The Fish is back.

Boy I'd love to play some of these line ups. *SHARK BAIT OOH-HA-HA*. It's not only about the reach, you have to consider the speed/range abilities of your models as well. Stave is a reasonable choice for this matter, but also you have to realize a KD isn't even really that amazing of a counter attack option in general. You'd really rather have pushes when you can. Stave also makes it so Shark can contest you on the momentum race and he really doesn't do you any favors for the rest of your matches. You reallllly don't want shark going first at the top of turn 2.

I'm a really big fan of Stoker against the Shark match. Stoker is super good against fish because they generally have low(ish) TAC and his armor eats it up. Most fish tackles are on the 2nd column and this can be fairly hard to do against an armor 2 model. His double >> on two is absolutely insane. "what about reach" you say? Well yeah, but the armor is more valuable. With Stoker you are basically playing Math-Ball. He's even better now a days because Sakana is falling out of favor in lieu of Hag/Greyscales.

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I brought a 9 of Esters/Tapper/Scum/Hooper/Mash/oSpig/Pintpot/Stoker/Harry

He brought Corsair/Salt/Sakana/Greyscales/vSiren/Hag/Angel/Jac/Snakeskin.

He won initiative, elected to receive, and left Sakana, Jac and Snakeskin on the bench.

I gleefully opted to leave Pintpot, Stoker and Esters riding the pine.

I was still a little worried as we started the first turn, as I have come up against some rough Corsair teams.  He missed a pass, but was still able to get the ball down the line to Greyscales, who then made his way to my goal, whiffed on an attack, and lost the ball to a Mash counteratack.

I then took out Corsair (after a Tooled Up Tapper reduced him to 4hp on T1) and Siren during T2 while protecting the ball, and then finished him off during T3 by taking out Hag, pushing a re-entering Corsair off of the board (with Howzat!), and then ending the game with a Scum goal.

I almost felt bad about my 12-0 win, as I didn't realize that this guy was struggling with the Fish and Guild Ball in general, but it was league play. so...

Thanks for all of the advice here!  Taking on another Fish team on Saturday - most likely Shark this time, as my future opponent watched the game outlined above and no longer wants to bring Corsair!

SCArmoury likes this

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Solid victory, I think Corsair teams can struggle into Brewers. The tough hide, ability to absolutely smash corsair with a hooper under commanding aura and relatively could return goal threat with players like Mash, vSpigot or Friday all who are no slouch under CA with a few ganging up bonuses makes it way, waaaaaaaaaaay more favorable then Shark. 

Well played mate, keep us updated on the next game!

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Against Shark for goals.... pray. That is a tough match up. @tehlon is most certainly right about armor. I think his point about Stoker is solid and I would I would say that IMHO Mash is probably almost an auto include. 2" reach and unpredictable movement let you borrow some fish tricks even if at a slower pace. I think if there were a brewers line up that I'd dislike when running Shark it would probably be: Esters/Mash/Stoker/oSpigot/Firday/Scum but I really have limited experience playing as the brewers myself (4-5 games) so perhaps Tapper would be better with the extra influence to hand out and 2" reach. Just feels easier to guess activations with Tapper since you know he wants to pop old jake's every turn. If I was bringing Tapper I'd probably swap Friday for Hooper and get the 2" and then be able to hand out tough skin.

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Shark is the biggest reason I'm parking the Brewers this season.  I just don't feel like there's anything they can effectively do.  If I and my opponent play equally well, it's a 12-6 victory in Shark's favor.  I can bring all the 2'' melee and that gets me into the ballpark of damaging dudes sometimes, but it's almost impossible to kill the ball when most of the Fish can retrieve the ball just fine.  Even then though, I could play the game.  It's Shark's legendary that means I have a turn where I just watch my opponent do what he wants.

Brewers just don't have a good answer to him, and it's pretty frustrating.  I've put them in the bag and maybe I'll get them back out in Season 4.  Before, if Tapper could get a charge off on Shark, he had a chance to just one-round the guy early.  Ol' Jakes himself and keep whacking.  If he didn't kill Shark, the next guy did for sure.  But that's gone now, and Tapper just doesn't have the fire to get it done.

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Played a game against Shark fish yesterday. Parked the ball on Friday with oSpigot close and Hooper's tough skin up at all times, making her a 5+/2. Kept her out of range of Shark in turn one, and watched him waste 10 (!) influence trying to get the ball off her turn 2. Needless to say, this brought his guys in range of Tapper, Hooper, and Scum who made quick work of Shark, Siren, Jac and Sakana, after which Friday moved in for the goal and a 12-0 victory. Now, I do believe that if my opponent had gone earlier in the turn with Shark he might have used the legendary to some effect, making the game harder. But all in all I was quite pleased with how Friday kept the ball, 6+/2 on a charge is nothing to scoff at I suppose. And with Esters she could be a 6+/2 every turn if need be. 

Ik-tornado likes this

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Just curious, did your fish opponent not have oSiren?  Because she's very likely to strip the ball regardless of defense.  That's the problem I keep slamming into.  4/3 Mash, 6/2 Friday can both hold it extremely well vs attacks (and it's worth the activations and inf to do so imo), but oSiren is the proverbial ace in the hole for when T just won't work.

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Yeah he did play her and he went for the oSiren kickoff with the intention of immediately seducing the ball back into his team. didn't work out for him as I got Tapper into melee with her after retrieving the ball and dodging off the pass. Regardless, 6 defence Friday should be able to hold the ball against seduced most of the time right? 

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40-50% success rate depending on bonus time so on that front much better than Mash (who had been my theory for ball killing because I like esters and he has UM).

 

I guess as long as you win that coin flip twice (once under sharks legendary and once more to get a turn of work done) I can see this game playing out in brewers favor somewhat well.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that this is at all easy ;), and I'm well aware that the scenario I described above may well be once-in-a-lifetime. However I am not (yet) as put out by shark as many berwers plays seem to be. I think that we have <some>  options against him, especially since you know exactly what is coming right? I'd be happy enough to make that coin flip once and lose it  on the second go, because that will likely give some opportunities to get some work done. You really have to make sure to sacrifice a healthy goat to the Dice Gods before the game though :P

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I never remember that is playbook activated until it happens to me.  Yeah that goes around all the def and she likely has a target within range since the scrum is developing around Friday because of the ball.

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