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Napoleon

Bonesaw - do you love him or hate him?

42 posts in this topic

i'm going to begin trialling Bonesaw, at least in games where i'm receiving for a turn 1 missile. But there is something that worries me a lot - making two passes to start his run.

something gets me very worried about the roughly ~25% of games where one of those passes will whiff, resulting in an off course ball, no goal, and quite possibly a dead bonesaw at 12 boxes and 4/0.

but when the dervish works, his threat range is huge, and his actual shot on the goal is on par with Angel under supershot and Corsair legendary due to meditation. Which repairs his very fragile statline up to a much more respectable 5/0.

what has been your s3 experience with him? is there teams you field him against and ones you dont? scoring is definitely a very key part of season 3 over all so i feel the importance of figuring out this guy. I appreciate his playbook is better than Mists too, although mist is both substantially faster (pre-dervish, but mist is a 100% reliable) and has 2" melee and a play dodge. 

 

 

 

 

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I have used Bonesaw in all my S3 games so far. Not to great success sadly :(

Generally he dies as he seems to be perceived as quite a big threat... which can be helpful to distract from the back-up goal scorers but he is an easy 2vp with his Def and low hits.

I've still not managed the turn 1 goal as I normally miss a pass in the chain but I'm going to persevere. I normally set him up for a turn 2 goal as I usually kick and then he's a handy snapshot turret for goal 2/3 if not dealt with.

I'm tempted to start dropping him against Fillet Butchers as he gets murdered far too easily. Fish with all the 2" melee can be a struggle to keep the ball on him as well.

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He's too much of a gimmick for me and I feel I need someone more consistent.

Morticians do seem to have a lot of high risk,high reward plays though.

 

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If you can land that turn 1 goal, you can then use him as a control piece. Unexpected arrival is amazing if you can position it properly. 

That said, for. True striker, mist beats him out.  20" threat. 2" reach. Acrobatics. Just a solid all round striker. 

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I love him for working on bicep curls when I don't have Vet Katalyst around.  Am I the only one in love with that 50mm base?

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Is it possible dervish should just be ignored unless you have to take the risk / swimming in momentum? With 16", teamwork dodge, confidence you have enough for the goal threat and meditation means its pretty likely + very low investment from obs

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I think Dervish is situational and risky, but Meditation is the nuts. 

I've always been a fan of Bonesaw as he has a decent range and capable of clearing enemies from my Furious players, but now he come with more tricks and increased accuracy. 

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I've actually had a lot of success on knocking players off as they come back on off the side with him, or using ob to walk someone who has already gone closer to a board edge for him to push them off. 

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I've used him twice and disliked both times. This is not to say he doesn't have his uses, but I feel like the conditions have to be perfect for him to work consistently, and when they don't, he is a 4/0 model on the pitch doing really nothing helpful. I feel like there is really no backup plan with him. Either you score, or....

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16 hours ago, DeathlyDrew said:

I've used him twice and disliked both times. This is not to say he doesn't have his uses, but I feel like the conditions have to be perfect for him to work consistently, and when they don't, he is a 4/0 model on the pitch doing really nothing helpful. I feel like there is really no backup plan with him. Either you score, or....

Is it me or this forum is desperatley pessimistic ? :huh:

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3 hours ago, Leader9-1 said:

Is it me or this forum is desperatley pessimistic ? :huh:

I said he has his uses. But personally I just don't like him much for what he brings. There are some out there that swear by him and if he works he is marvelous, I just haven't been able to do that on a consistent enough basis to add him to my nine.

 

Honestly I think it is a good topic. There are a lot of Morts players out there that use Bonesaw all the time, but it's good to see that I am not the only one who doesn't use him and/or struggles with him.

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I love the model and really would like to see him work. Unfortunately, he just does not hold a candle to Mist or A&G. To be fair, Mist also doesn't hold a candle to A&G for striker capability and overall usability. Bonesaw requires 2 influence, 2 momentum, and really wants 3 influence and 3 momentum often 1 momentum for swift wind due to base size, 1 influence for meditation, then 1 momentum + 1 influence to make a shot. This is a max range 2 or 3 dice shot on goal (pending interfering models) with rerolls looking for a 4.

Mist is looking at minimum 2 influence 2 momentum to make the same shot, unless he kicked. He has to dodge off a pass he recieves for the 4 inches up the board, then sprint plus shot, although Mist also typically wants 2 more influence to do smoke cloud and acrobatic in order to get within 4 inches of the goal for a 3 die shot looking for 3's.

A&G can start on the line and hold the momentum generated by passing (to either of them). A gets 2 influence, G gets 1. A picks up G, sprints 7 inches up the board, places G in B2B with the ball (8 inches up the board). G then uses A's influence to combo jog + WTG to end within 2 inches of the goal. 4 dice shot on goal looking for 3's. If you need an extra 2 inches for some reason (engaging a goal-keeper, positioning, etc) you can put the 3rd influence on A.

A&G are simply better, more reliable, more flexible strikers plus A bring along singled out and damage + pushes to enable the rest of the team. I struggle to see a reason to bring Bonesaw or Mist over them in most games. I'm now looking at bringing B&M vs Alchemists simply because vKat + Greede is an easy 4 points while vKat + Memory = 0 points.

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I've mostly been using Scalpel lately and I find that there models which are more suited to her playstyle in terms of getting goals.

I think he may have more of a place in an Obulous team where he has better opportunity to sit back and wait for that opportunistic long goal.

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1 hour ago, Nix said:

I love the model and really would like to see him work. Unfortunately, he just does not hold a candle to Mist or A&G. To be fair, Mist also doesn't hold a candle to A&G for striker capability and overall usability. Bonesaw requires 2 influence, 2 momentum, and really wants 3 influence and 3 momentum often 1 momentum for swift wind due to base size, 1 influence for meditation, then 1 momentum + 1 influence to make a shot. This is a max range 2 or 3 dice shot on goal (pending interfering models) with rerolls looking for a 4.

Mist is looking at minimum 2 influence 2 momentum to make the same shot, unless he kicked. He has to dodge off a pass he recieves for the 4 inches up the board, then sprint plus shot, although Mist also typically wants 2 more influence to do smoke cloud and acrobatic in order to get within 4 inches of the goal for a 3 die shot looking for 3's.

A&G can start on the line and hold the momentum generated by passing (to either of them). A gets 2 influence, G gets 1. A picks up G, sprints 7 inches up the board, places G in B2B with the ball (8 inches up the board). G then uses A's influence to combo jog + WTG to end within 2 inches of the goal. 4 dice shot on goal looking for 3's. If you need an extra 2 inches for some reason (engaging a goal-keeper, positioning, etc) you can put the 3rd influence on A.

A&G are simply better, more reliable, more flexible strikers plus A bring along singled out and damage + pushes to enable the rest of the team. I struggle to see a reason to bring Bonesaw or Mist over them in most games. I'm now looking at bringing B&M vs Alchemists simply because vKat + Greede is an easy 4 points while vKat + Memory = 0 points.

Greede cannot activate after being picked up and replaced though right? Reattach says at the start of this models activation, once you have him picked up his activation is over and you have moved on to Avarisse's activation. Yes you can set him down at the end of the activation, but that would be giving Greede two activations.

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7 minutes ago, DeathlyDrew said:

Greede cannot activate after being picked up and replaced though right? Reattach says at the start of this models activation, once you have him picked up his activation is over and you have moved on to Avarisse's activation. Yes you can set him down at the end of the activation, but that would be giving Greede two activations.

His activation is shared with Avarisse. Picking him up doesn't end it, and you can put him down and then continue acting with either model.

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Just now, Gauntlet said:

His activation is shared with Avarisse. Picking him up doesn't end it, and you can put him down and then continue acting with either model.

AH! I've been playing him wrong. I thought they were separate models and activations still, but they just had to be one after another, not one activation for both.

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1 hour ago, Nix said:

A&G can start on the line and hold the momentum generated by passing (to either of them). A gets 2 influence, G gets 1. A picks up G, sprints 7 inches up the board, places G in B2B with the ball (8 inches up the board). G then uses A's influence to combo jog + WTG to end within 2 inches of the goal. 4 dice shot on goal looking for 3's. If you need an extra 2 inches for some reason (engaging a goal-keeper, positioning, etc) you can put the 3rd influence on A.

A&G are simply better, more reliable, more flexible strikers plus A bring along singled out and damage + pushes to enable the rest of the team. I struggle to see a reason to bring Bonesaw or Mist over them in most games. I'm now looking at bringing B&M vs Alchemists simply because vKat + Greede is an easy 4 points while vKat + Memory = 0 points.

I used to think that of A&G's striking ability.  Then I played against a few teams where I did that (using Hunters), scored, but now Avarisse is near the middle of the board (off to the side), and Greede is detached from him (unless he has Knee Slider).  And then the opponent got to farm momentum out of Avarisse like no tomorrow (3/0 doesn't really do much to prevent that).  So A&G pretty much guarantees you one solid goal, but is almost useless after that because a good opponent will just murder Greede and farm Avarisse.  

I do think A&G is more useful in teams better than Hunters, like Corsair Fish or even Union, when you have a lot more threats that the opponent has to deal with instead of farming Avarisse.  With Hunters it just didn't work since Hunters are usually dodgy (especially against a beater team like Brewers or Butchers) and Avarisse is the easy target.  That's my theory at least. :)

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@kryzak Hunters are one of the teams I do not play A&G with at all, I don't see a fit for them. I agree after they score the goal they are mid-table (A) and some arbitrary distance away (G). I find that I'm often scoring later in the turn with the pair, so post scoring there are not as many activations left. Additionally, it all depends on who's attacking A, as anyone vulnerable to a counter attack can be handled fairly well by him.  

Related to the OP, in morticians I cannot see the argument for Bonesaw over A&G. Morticians do have the other threats that keep a team from "farming" momentum off A. Additionally, if the Mort player is using Obulus, farm away.

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1 hour ago, Nix said:

@kryzak Hunters are one of the teams I do not play A&G with at all, I don't see a fit for them. I agree after they score the goal they are mid-table (A) and some arbitrary distance away (G). I find that I'm often scoring later in the turn with the pair, so post scoring there are not as many activations left. Additionally, it all depends on who's attacking A, as anyone vulnerable to a counter attack can be handled fairly well by him.  

Related to the OP, in morticians I cannot see the argument for Bonesaw over A&G. Morticians do have the other threats that keep a team from "farming" momentum off A. Additionally, if the Mort player is using Obulus, farm away.

True, I haven't played A&G much with Morticians yet.  Usually just go with Mist since he's much faster at tackling the ball even though A&G scores better and has more utility.  The rest of the Morts team has enough utility that I don't necessarily need A&G over Mist.

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Avarisse is the hunters best "big guy" and greede is their best striker. Best ball retrieval too just by carrying greede around. Seenah has the kd but cant counter to save her life. (I have a pretty low opinion of counter attackers with only a KD due to how easy it is to get a mom result against most of them)

So A&G are super utility for the hunters. A deals with 1" non kd attackers well butyeah is otherwise a farm just like seenah, hearne etc. 

For morts avarisse and greede are a much different proposition but if for whatever reason i didnt have my love ghast id take ag just to have a big guy ( and 14 inf ). I wouldnt really compare bonesaw to them because hes a different slot i think. I dont really play AG for greedes one goal but for the overall flexibility of the duo.

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That's the thing, in Hunters, A&G just adds to the "farminess" of Hunters.  But when used for utility and a nice late game score, they're terrific (and if the rest of the team can put enough pressure on the opponent)

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Bonesaw is in my 9 for brewers mostly. 

I still prefer mist as a icing option and another 2" reach model. 

As a dedicated striker, he's still a good piece. He also brings nice control with unexpected arrival.

On top of that, he's a 50mm base and with tap in and bonus time, he's got a very good snap shot. 

But again, he's situational unfortunately. 

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Im going to go out on a limb after a fair bit of theorycrafting and say in most situations i prefer bonesaw to mist. However mists very strong movement makes him stronger at recovery by a significant margin. Threatening 12" from cover. 

In any other circumstance bonesaws playbook is better to help him mitigate his 1" melee disadvantage. Such as T《《 on 4 rather than mist needing 5 to get the same. Mom 《 comes earlier than mists book also 

Bonesaw is also the most accurate kicker in the game. Engaged by 2 models with no LOS to the goal gives him an 80% to score under meditation and bonus time. No single model can boast that to my knowledge except the saw. Essentially this means he can just run 8 up the middle after a teamwork dodge and shoot regardless of factors. If someone blocks his landing spot a confidence charge or obulus shenanigan should resolve the issue. 

That kind of accuracy shouldn't  be under rated.

My other prime hope is def 6 slippery can shrug off parting blows of any model without low KD.

Now its time for me to put him on the table as many times as possible and see if my theory has merit or if his 3" lesser threat of mist (5" sometimes) undoes his usefulness.

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I like Bonesaw he has a big threat range and and Meditation lets you take some riskier shots and has saved a lot of goals that would've been misses. He can be a little momentum hungry but I feel like the payout can be worth it. If you do score with him Offensive Defence makes him hard to remove.

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