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juicysquash

Shark to strong?

111 posts in this topic
2 hours ago, Trygle said:

What could be useful is perhaps a "MetaBender" against Shark. Where people take an element that is a boogeyman in game and just completely eviscerate them within the bounds of the game.

Please no steamforged. I don't want this game to become another extended game of list based rock paper scissors like others. Nothing makes me feel the waste of time that you've mentioned like hard counters everywhere and knowing I'll be playing for an hour after already losing. 

If people continue to complain enough I'm sure there will be changes. Hopefully it's not as bad as some of the suggestions like 4" pulse, where I'd likely just bench Shark. If the legendary can't do what it needs to do through the nerfs, it's better to just Midas him. 

Probably should get all my Sharking out this season.

Lord Antoine likes this

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I've only played vs shark once in the first tournament I played in a couple of weeks ago. Won 12-8 with VRage. Shark managed a goal and 9" knee slider whilst rage took out a player (sakana i think) turn 1. Shark managed another goal whilst I took out jaq and siren. Greyscales went after the ball but my players didn't have it so couldn't tackle or balls gone so then he died and the ball got knocked up to rage for a goal.

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3 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

Please no steamforged. I don't want this game to become another extended game of list based rock paper scissors like others. Nothing makes me feel the waste of time that you've mentioned like hard counters everywhere and knowing I'll be playing for an hour after already losing. 

If people continue to complain enough I'm sure there will be changes. Hopefully it's not as bad as some of the suggestions like 4" pulse, where I'd likely just bench Shark. If the legendary can't do what it needs to do through the nerfs, it's better to just Midas him. 

Probably should get all my Sharking out this season.

He's talking about someone posting an article on how to play against Shark, not creating models that stomp him.

juicysquash and Trygle like this

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I personally haven't played against a Shark in season 3, but an issue folks have seems to be the distance of the legendary. I can see how gumming up a half of the board is really powerful, but I also can see how reducing the distance of the pulse could really negatively impact his play. How about changing the scope of targets from every enemy, to 3 enemies in the pulse? It adds a little bit more tactical play when using it(waiting for people to activate, picking the best targets, etc.), but would allow an enemy the chance to do something about it if the Shark player leaves loose ends. 

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As a player who has focused fishermen since day one: There’s nothing wrong with Shark. Card for Card he is balanced against other captains. When you skew a player so far towards one aspect of the game it is ok for him to be the best at that aspect. The issue is season 3 has “warped the game around him”. His card saw no changes in season 3, but the changes to game mechanics are buffs for goal scoring teams.

First: Tap in mitigates the variance which plagues 3 goal teams.

Second: Home Crowd is huge for a team which loves to counter attack, but can tend to run dry for momentum.

Third: Global icy sponge change makes a second take out harder.

Fourth: Knee slider is here, but Protect your Balls and Get it Back are not.

I could talk about any one of these topics for hours, but the point is Shark, in and of himself, is not too strong or too broken. In fact I’d argue, from a variance perspective, he may still be a sub optimal choice if your aim is to achieve 1st place at a lengthy competitive event. Yes, it is going to seem super broken when you end up wasting a bunch of influence because of The Net or Gut and String, but at the end of the day it is a survival mechanic. The team can’t out fight you so it needs a creative way to not die.

Expand your skill set. If you’re seeing more Shark in your meta, make it a point to play against more Shark. A lot of people in this thread are saying “just let him score then kill him”. That’s exactly what the skilled fish captain wants you to do. Figure out a better way! You think you’re going to 0-6 him before he can go 3-0 you’re probably wrong and need to adjust accordingly. Add in some close control. Add in glutinous mass. Use Brisket. Learn how to place the ball after a goal. Bring Compound/Tenderizer/Vvelocity. Draft characters who can still use influence when netted. Even if these additions don’t strictly prevent a goal you’ve made the Shark player commit to certain sub-optimal expenditures of resources. The only way to learn the matchup is to play the matchup.

To Summarize: We’re still early days in season 3. The meta is shifting away from 4-1 in favor of 2-2 or 3-0. This is something which wasn’t great is now perfectly viable – and that scares people.

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10 minutes ago, tehlon said:

As a player who has focused fishermen since day one: There’s nothing wrong with Shark. Card for Card he is balanced against other captains. When you skew a player so far towards one aspect of the game it is ok for him to be the best at that aspect. The issue is season 3 has “warped the game around him”. His card saw no changes in season 3, but the changes to game mechanics are buffs for goal scoring teams.

First: Tap in mitigates the variance which plagues 3 goal teams.

Second: Home Crowd is huge for a team which loves to counter attack, but can tend to run dry for momentum.

Third: Global icy sponge change makes a second take out harder.

Fourth: Knee slider is here, but Protect your Balls and Get it Back are not.

I could talk about any one of these topics for hours, but the point is Shark, in and of himself, is not too strong or too broken. In fact I’d argue, from a variance perspective, he may still be a sub optimal choice if your aim is to achieve 1st place at a lengthy competitive event. Yes, it is going to seem super broken when you end up wasting a bunch of influence because of The Net or Gut and String, but at the end of the day it is a survival mechanic. The team can’t out fight you so it needs a creative way to not die.

Expand your skill set. If you’re seeing more Shark in your meta, make it a point to play against more Shark. A lot of people in this thread are saying “just let him score then kill him”. That’s exactly what the skilled fish captain wants you to do. Figure out a better way! You think you’re going to 0-6 him before he can go 3-0 you’re probably wrong and need to adjust accordingly. Add in some close control. Add in glutinous mass. Use Brisket. Learn how to place the ball after a goal. Bring Compound/Tenderizer/Vvelocity. Draft characters who can still use influence when netted. Even if these additions don’t strictly prevent a goal you’ve made the Shark player commit to certain sub-optimal expenditures of resources. The only way to learn the matchup is to play the matchup.

To Summarize: We’re still early days in season 3. The meta is shifting away from 4-1 in favor of 2-2 or 3-0. This is something which wasn’t great is now perfectly viable – and that scares people.

This is a good post.

Napoleon and tehlon like this

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I am a huge fan of how tied to story/reality of all the abilities in Guild Ball tend to be, which leads me to wonder what changing the wording of Shark's Legendary from "Enemy models" to "All models" (or perhaps ""All other models") would do to this OP/NPE perception.   They may be Fishermen, but they can still get caught in their Captain's net.

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7 minutes ago, Woldie said:

I am a huge fan of how tied to story/reality of all the abilities in Guild Ball tend to be, which leads me to wonder what changing the wording of Shark's Legendary from "Enemy models" to "All models" (or perhaps ""All other models") would do to this OP/NPE perception.   They may be Fishermen, but they can still get caught in their Captain's net.

Legendary are suppose to very strong and shouldn't have a negative effect on your players, I don't know If I remember one that does and they are a once only thing.

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I could see Shark's Legendary going to a targeted AOE instead of an aura a pulse. Maybe a 6" AOE within 8" of him - a much smaller area, but he can put it wherever he wants.

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2 hours ago, RedSam said:

I could see Shark's Legendary going to a targeted AOE instead of an aura. Maybe a 6" AOE within 8" of him - a much smaller area, but he can put it wherever he wants.

It's already a pulse.

On 2/19/2017 at 3:21 AM, RandomScrub said:

@Trygle mostly posted the vid as it was somewhat relevant to the broader discussion. If you are worried about games going long, maybe play Shark. He smashes out those wins in record time. 

 

 

I did it btw. Went 4-0 with time for beer almost every game.

I think I got a couple rules wrong though early on for reactive plays on the opponent +what constitutes a "dead ball". Major Misplays meant I gave up more points than was necessary.

Something about being on the "dishing out" side of the pitch changes the game so much, but I think I will go back to vying for 2nd with my Brewers.

The biggest problem my opponents face is: There is 0 margin for error on placement. You move just ONE model wrong and I get a snapback goal. You choose the return ball wrong, I get another goal. There is 0 room for error playing against Fish.

RandomScrub likes this

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23 minutes ago, Trygle said:

It's already a pulse.

Sorry, yeah, I meant pulse, not aura.

I mean that it could change to something like Theron's forest - a circular AOE that can be placed anywhere within 8" of him. More like he's throwing the net at people.

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